Bishop says Medjugorje apparitions are divisive

[Lilllabettt]

People always say, look at the fruits. I hear about people who went a little loopy after visiting that place, but it is true that other people have had beautiful spiritual experiences there.

I think the thing you have to look at is how the visionaries are living their lives. Do they refuse gifts and attention? Do they encourage people to listen to the Church before listening to them? Do they scorn the trappings of consumerism? Do they love poverty, humility, obedience?

I do not know the answers to these questions. I imagine that people over there can see better than I.
But the Lady of Medjugorje makes me feel funny. She doesn't sound like Mamma.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Thess,

I posted the "message" a few posts after making that claim (see post #31)

[Jaime]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1023139' date='Jul 12 2006, 03:44 PM']
Thess,

I posted the "message" a few posts after making that claim (see post #31)
[/quote]

Yes you posted it then misquoted it again.

Never was it quoted that all religions are equal. All people are equal. That still isn't contrary to Church teachings

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1023149' date='Jul 12 2006, 06:12 PM']
Yes you posted it then misquoted it again.

Never was it quoted that all religions are equal. All people are equal. That still isn't contrary to Church teachings
[/quote]
post #33...

[quote name=''Fides et Ratio' date="Jul 06 2006' date=' 10:31PM'']I don't disagree at all the persons all hold equal value and dignity. But religions do not, whether "in the world" or not. There will only be one religion in Heaven. Nonetheless, this is still a very ambiguos answer....
Such that my last paragraph still stands. In all the confusion that followed, there is no clarification. Why would Our Lady not take pains to eradicate this confusion and contention among Catholics over one of her messages? Why does she not address the disobedience and other concerning circumstances surrounding her apparitions? This is very uncharacteristic of her other authentic Apparitions.
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote]"Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom."[/quote]

This sounds a lot like religious indifferentism. Nothing wrong with [i]members[/i] of all "faiths" being equal before God, but the second part sounds extremely phishy to say the least. - "God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom."

God rules over one Kingdom - his Church - which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.
He does not rule over many different seperate "kingdoms."

How can each of these separate "kingdoms" (religions) with their differing and conflicting claims, each be ruled over by the same God as its Sovereign?
And which religions in the world qualify as "faiths" under the sovereign rule of God?
The Eastern Orthodox?
The Anglicans?
The Baptists?
The Mormons?
Islam?
Hinduism?
Wicca?
The Church of Scientology?
The Church of Satan?

Very, very phishy statement.

And the local Bishop has most firmly and clearly condemned these so-called "apparitions."
(Of course, there are some who will deny the authority of this Good Bishop.)

These Medjugorje "apparitions" are a big load of carp - that's right, I said carp - the big smelly fish.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Socrates

[Jaime]

God rules over all the faiths you've listed and all the ones you don't. If he didn't, he would not have the authority to judge them.


Nothing phishy at all.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1023139' date='Jul 12 2006, 03:44 PM']
Thess,

I posted the "message" a few posts after making that claim (see post #31) ;)
[/quote]

Please don't take this post wrong. You know I have the highest regard for you.

Yes I saw that quote, and figured it was the one you were refering to. I still want to know where it says all religions are the same or equal. That quote does not say that pure and simple. I have no problem with what that quote says and do not find it ambigous at all.


[quote]Are all religions the same? "[b]Members[/b] of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, [b]all religions are not the same [/b] because all people [b]have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them[/b]."[/quote]

The quote says MEMBERS of all faiths are equal before God. God shows no partiality and loves all men equally is what that tells me. Not that there religous beliefs are equal. God does rule in some fashion over all men. (romans 2:14-16, I can quote Pius XII as

Edited July 13, 2006 by thessalonian

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Thess, you too, are ignoring the clause "in the world" which is where I think the response takes on a level of ambiguity and where most of my concern with the response lies. "In the world" or not, all religions are not the same. I also take issue where the fact that there is no explicit affirmation of the Catholic faith in the response.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1023674' date='Jul 13 2006, 02:00 PM']
Thess, you too, are ignoring the clause "in the world" which is where I think the response takes on a level of ambiguity and where most of my concern with the response lies. "In the world" or not, all religions are not the same. I also take issue where the fact that there is no explicit affirmation of the Catholic faith in the response.
[/quote]
I'm confused. How does "in the world" make that statement ambiguous?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1023686' date='Jul 13 2006, 02:16 PM']
I'm confused. How does "in the world" make that statement ambiguous?
[/quote]
I just don't get the clarification made by that phrase. Is it any different in Heaven?

Furthermore, I don't have the claimed books handy, so I hestitate to cite these... but the only clarifications I can seem to find on the matter only seem all the more condemning of the apparitions...

[quote]Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?

Seer Vicka Ivankovic: "No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son." (Janice T. Connell, The Visions of the Children, The Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin's Press, August 1992).
[/quote]


Nonetheless, THERE IS great confusion over this particular aspect of the messages... why hasn't she clarified herself? There was no hesitation when there was some confusion over the prayer she gave in the recently approved apparitions at Amsterdam for Our Lady to clarify herself and dispell the confusion that surrounded part of her message.




Most of my concern with Medjugorje is the lack of obedience displayed by many who are directly invovled with the apparitions. Now that the Bishop has asked them to stop out of obedience to the Church, what follows will be telling evidence of their devotion.

[Sojourner]

Hmmm. I just don't see the problem with either of those statements. Of course, I don't have the context in which they were made, but I can easily make sense of them in a way that jives with what I understand of church teaching.

I suppose that, like anything, your presuppositions coming in will color your interpretation of a given statement. I apparently don't have the same presuppositions that you do.

I can't really speak to the question of obedience as I haven't read enough on the topic to be able to form a reasonable opinion.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1023674' date='Jul 13 2006, 12:00 PM']
Thess, you too, are ignoring the clause "in the world" which is where I think the response takes on a level of ambiguity and where most of my concern with the response lies. "In the world" or not, all religions are not the same. I also take issue where the fact that there is no explicit affirmation of the Catholic faith in the response.
[/quote]


Sorry, but the "in the world" phrase does nothing to change my thinking. Are you somehow thinking the sentence before it is implying that there are people of differing faiths in heaven? That would be a strech. There is no way the statements presented in post #31 say that all religions are the same or equal. As I read it, just the opposite. She simply does not say all religions are the same.

Obedience is definitely key to the whole thing and we will see where that heads. Having a bishop who is against them is not any proof of anything because both Fatima and Gudalupe had bishops who were against them. But if this appartion brings about division and disobedience it will be a big blow to it's authenticity. So I share your concerns in that area.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Fair enough. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree... I read those entries (and interviews with the seers) and take their wording very differently. It may seem trite to harp on a small phrase, but, as I said before, Council Fathers beat each other up over phrases. I reserved a few books from the library to do more careful study myself on the apparitions to get more context (but the first 3 years-- from whence the questionable message comes-- are not included in most of the books I could find, even and including the Medjugorje website....)


All in all, I think the most recent article I posted from CWN, and the Bishops' command should be the focus right now:
[quote]"Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church."[/quote]
There's the simple litmus test. If the apparitions are authentic, then they will cease upon the Bishop's command. (you can find the text of Bishop Peric's entire homily [url="http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2006/07/homily-of-bishop-ratko-peric-of.html"]here[/url])

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1023509' date='Jul 13 2006, 04:15 AM']
God rules over all the faiths you've listed and all the ones you don't. If he didn't, he would not have the authority to judge them.
Nothing phishy at all.
[/quote]

[quote]"Members of all faiths are equal before God. [b]God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom.[/b]"[/quote]
The problem here is that a "faith" refers to a set of beliefs and practices, not just a group of people.
Yes, it is true that God rules over all people and all the entire universe as soveriegn Lord. However to say "God rules over each [i]faith[/i] just like a sovereign over his kingdom" implies that God somehow rules over each religion as a seperate kingdom, and that He is the Lord of each of these sets of beliefs and practices, no matter how false or erroneous.

There is only one Kingdom of God - the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. All who are in His kingdom are there because they are in some way part of the Church (as by Christian baptism). God does not rule over multiple "kingdoms" or multiple "faiths."
He does not have a Catholic kingdom, and a Muslim kingdom, and a Buddhist Kingdom, and a Mormon kingdom, etc., etc.

If this "message" is only to say that God is Sovereign Ruler over all men, then why doesn't the "apparition" just say so, rather than saying he rules "each faith."
This statement is extremely ambiguous, misleading, and poorly-worded at best, outright heretical at worst. In any case, it hardly sounds like something Our Blessed Mother would proclaim to the world.

[quote]Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?

Seer Vicka Ivankovic: "No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son." [/quote]
If accurately reported, this statement is even more problematic. This is straight-out religious indifferentism and heresy. Here the so-called apparition claims that not all people are called to Christ's own Church (as if some are called to false religions and erroneous beliefs).

Note that it says "all [b]religions[/b]," not "[b]followers[/b] of all religions."

How can erroneous beliefs and falsehoods be "dear to the Blessed Mother and her Son"??
Is paganism involving human sacrifice "dear to her and her Son"?

I have seen nothing to convince me these "messages" are authentic. Whatever their source, it is NOT the Blessed Virgin.

[thessalonian]

Socrates,

I searched through the website with the apparitions and cannot find anywhere that Mary says "all religions are dear to her son". Now I think this quote you have is taken from an interview with the seer and not the Blessed Mother's own words. So let's be a little more careful next time where the words come from. Quite clearly the BM has said that all religions are not the same. Most certainly there is truth in all religions and this truth is to be revered while the errors are to be rejected.

Blessings