Too Much Emphasis Of The Virgin Mary?

[Archaeology cat]

Damiano,

Yes, I've read your posts. As a convert to Catholicism, I've examined the Marian teachings in the light of Scripture and see nothing contradictory to Scripture in them. Yes, I know you disagree. I don't think anything I say would convince you otherwise, and so I will simply pray. May God richly bless you.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='10 June 2010 - 04:53 AM' timestamp='1276170792' post='2126715']
Damiano,

Yes, I've read your posts. As a convert to Catholicism, I've examined the Marian teachings in the light of Scripture and see nothing contradictory to Scripture in them. Yes, I know you disagree. I don't think anything I say would convince you otherwise, and so I will simply pray. May God richly bless you.
[/quote]
it'll be awhile before he responds, fyi.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='09 June 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1276111197' post='2126407']
the quote tags are actually really easy to use.
[/quote]
see what i mean?

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 05:37 AM' timestamp='1275993472' post='2125584']
*["Wow, I don't know if I should go after your Sola Scriptura or your Mother of God diss..."]


***Don't spend any time on me...clean your house and make dinner for yours kids.

Damiano
[/quote]



Classic. I don't have any kids. I didn't assume you were some 87 year old who couldn't figure out to use the quote button, so don't assume I have kids.

And I was serious. I didn't know how much time to spend on you. I'm teaching summer school. I don't mind having a discussion but I wanted to know if you were capable of having a conversation or just another brick wall? It's the summer and I was cleaning my room and quite frankly, you are no different than Jack Chick. You are anti-Catholic and your hatred for us is evident in your posts. It's not out of love you post, it's out of hatred. But that's okay. Christ was hated. So must we be hated.

[quote]
If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hated. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church that is accused of being behind the times, as our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusions of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine…the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness. ~ Biship Fulton Sheen[/quote]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='10 June 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1276153251' post='2126680']
Damiano,

First, there may very well be some Catholics who try to deify Mary (unfortunately), but they are in error to do so. The Church does not teach that she is deified in any way, nor does the Church teach that she should be worshipped - just the opposite in fact, since the Church declares that God alone is to be worshipped. Now, as the objection you note, yes, we believe that she was full of grace prior to the birth of Jesus, but we believe that she was full of grace because of the sacrifice Jesus would make. It was applied to her pre-emptively, which is possible for God because He is outside of time. As far as I understand it (and I admit I could be wrong), her being Mediatrix of all graces is because Jesus, who gives all grace, was born of Mary. Without her saying "yes" to God, the Incarnation, and thus the Crucifixion and Resurrection, wouldn't have happened. This does not at all mean that she isn't a recipient of grace. She has no grace of her own to give, but has grace from God. This does not deify her, it does not state that she doesn't need a Saviour, either, since we acknowledge that she was saved by God and not by her own power.

God bless.
[/quote]
[quote name='Damiano' date='10 June 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1276162974' post='2126706']
***Again you distort the truth. Your church without any warrant whatever from Scripture technically divides worship into three kinds: (1) LATRIA...the supreme worship, given to God alone; (2) DULIA...a secondary kind of veneration given to saints and angels; and (3)...HYPERDULIA, a higher kind of veneration given to the Virgin Mary.
[/quote]

Arc Cat is correct. Every Catholic has to believe that God is the one and only deity and creator of everything. Therefore God created Mary and logically everything she possesses she must have attained from God. He also quite obviously bestowed upon her a very special role in his purpose and would have planned her before she was born, therefore it is logical that she would be given special appreciation even pre Jesus birth. The ten commandments tell us to honour thy father and mother. It is only logical that Jesus would also do this and would expect us to do so as well.

[quote]***Again...you can believe anything you want...but just because you believe it does not make it true.[/quote]
And just where do you think that you stand in the scheme of things? You are always right and 2k years of serious study by a multitude of very intelligent people is completely wrong.
Has the thought ever occurred to you that you could be wrong?

[quote]Where in Scripture does it say that God applied it pre-emptively???.[/quote]
Does scripture say that God is the all powerful creator of the universe and master of it? If it does then it also says that he is a time Lord even though we can't quote a specific reading. There are always logical conclusions, we don't have to have everything spelled out to us. BTW do you understand fluently the ancient languages of Jesus day? If you don't then you are also making assumptions. People who understand Arabic, Greek and Latin don't necessarily understand the ancient texts. Language changes over time that's why scholars have spent life times on interpretations.

[Bennn]

[quote name='Damiano' date='10 June 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1276162974' post='2126706']

***Again you distort the truth. Your church without any warrant whatever from Scripture technically divides worship into three kinds: (1) LATRIA...the supreme worship, given to God alone; (2) DULIA...a secondary kind of veneration given to saints and angels; and (3)...HYPERDULIA, a higher kind of veneration given to the Virgin Mary.

[/quote]

Do you believe that the Israëlites were committing idolatry by venerating King David? It's in Sacred Scripture.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

This is a very interesting thread. The differences in the way things are worded or not worded charitably is also interesting. Though, I do wonder why so many people continued to bang their heads against a brick wall when it became obvious that said wall was more interested in speaking his own position rather than listening and having a mature discussion and seeking God through seeking the truth lovingly, [i]veritas in caritate[/i] a well as [i]caritas in veritate[/i].

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Damiano' date='09 June 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1276141815' post='2126618']
Au Contrare. The word for "grace" is charis (Gr., femine noun---Strongs No. G5485) and is taken from the rootword chairo (Strongs No. G5463). Grace indicates "favour" on the part of the giver (i.e., God), and "thanks" on the part of the receiver (i.e., read of Mary's thankfulness in Luke 1:46-55).

In Ephesians 1:6 we are told that the ultimate goal of God's election is that believer's will be "to the praise of His glorious grace." A similar expression of praise is also given after the description of the work of the Son in [Ephesians 1:12] and of the Spirit in [Ephesians 1:14]. "His glorous grace" (i.e., unmerited favor) had been "freely given" us. The words "freely given" translate the verb echaritosen from the noun "grace" (charis). The verb form is used only one other time in the NT [Luke 1:28] where Mary is said to be "highly favoured." [Ephesians 1:6a] literally might be rendered "to the praise of His glorious grace which He 'graced' to us." Since salvation is all of God's grace, Christians should praise Him for it...for that is why we are chosen---to give Him praise.[/quote]
You have not said anything contrary to what I said in my original post; instead, you have simply been less precise because you have failed to note that the Greek word for grace in [i]Luke 1:28[/i] is in the pluperfect form, while it is not used in that form in [i]Ephesians 1:6[/i].

Edited June 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Paladin D]

Wow, what an old topic. Back in the day when I was finding my way towards Catholicism, memories.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Paladin D

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Damiano' date='10 June 2010 - 05:42 AM' timestamp='1276162974' post='2126706']

The theory, however, is useless in practice, for the average worshipper is not able to make the distinctions, nor does he even know that such distinctions exist.
[/quote]
I understand now. We're all morons is the bottom line.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='10 June 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1276196139' post='2126892']
it'll be awhile before he responds, fyi.
[/quote]

Sent him to visit Budge?