Too Much Emphasis Of The Virgin Mary?

[Bennn]

Damiano

You repeat yourself over and over, yet you find no way to actually refute our points. You say that we will burn in hell because of our beliefs, we say that our beliefs are the true Christian faith. You say that giving Mary the honour She deserves as the Mother of God is idolatry, we say it isn't. (I advise you to read the Scriptures where King David is venerated, not as God but as a true man of God)

If you will not take the time to try and actually refute our beliefs, which are founded in Scripture and the Tradition of the Apostles, then this debate goes no further than a simple 'yes' 'no' game, which will lead to nothing but arguing and frustration. You have already made your point that you think we are all going to be condemned if we do not submit to your personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and obviously we are not buying it. But instead of going more in depth, you keep repeating the same things over and over again.

Besides, if you are truly honest to yourself you cannot say that the Bible passages you throw at us are contrary to Catholic belief.

And about what you said on being raised Catholic: I was also raised in a 'catholic' school and in a 'catholic' society, yet my teachers spouted even more anti-Catholic doctrine at me than you are doing right now. It was only on my 17th that I actually got in touch with the true Catholic and Apostolic faith. So please don't use the old argument of 'I was raised this and that etc.' It is invalid. I wish you would actually do some in depth research about our faith before spitting on it, because you are putting your soul in grave danger.

You have a false view of ecumenism as well. True ecumenism is what we are doing right here.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

Edited June 8, 2010 by Bennn

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 06:37 AM' timestamp='1275993472' post='2125584']
*["I don't know how much time to spend on you. I've got to clean anyway."]

***Don't spend any time on me...[b]clean your house and make dinner for yours kids.[/b]

Damiano
[/quote]

WHAT??

[HisChildForever]

Oh, and post 106 has yet to be answered. Just a reminder.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1275983964' post='2125578']
You evidently don't know what "full of grace" means. "Full of grace" is a term used of all believers in [Ephesians 1:6], where it is translated "accepted." This portrays Mary as a recipient, not a dispenser, of divine grace. Here's what [Ephesians 1:6] says...to wit: "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (i.e., believers) accepted in the beloved" [Ephesians 1:6].

Damiano
[/quote]
No one has argued in this thread that Mary was not a recipient of grace; and so I am unclear as to why you have asserted this point against us when in fact all Catholics agree that Mary received grace from God, who alone is the source of grace.

Now with that out of the way, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that [i]Luke 1:28[/i] and [i]Ephesians 1:6[/i] use two different forms of the Greek word for "grace." In the case of the text from [i]Luke[/i] the word used is κεχαριτωμένη (perfect past participle), which conveys the meaning of an action completed fully in the past, but which continues in the present moment, and without any indication that it will end in the future; while in [i]Ephesians[/i] the word ἐχαρίτωσεν (indicative active aorist) is used, which conveys the sense of a past action regardless of its extent, progress, or duration. Moreover, the Angel Gabriel in the Gospel pericope from [i]Luke[/i], instead of addressing Mary by her proper name, hails her as κεχαριτωμένη, thus using that word in a titular manner, which means that the word κεχαριτωμένη becomes a name for Mary, just as Πέτρος became a name for the Apostle Simon bar Jonah in the Gospel of [i]Matthew[/i] (see [i]Matthew 16:18[/i]). In the former case, Mary - by the word of the Angel - is addressed with the title "she who has been, and is, completely graced"; while in the latter case, Jesus calls the Apostle Simon by the name "Rock" after Simon affirms Christ's divine sonship as an act of revelation given to him (i.e., to Simon Peter) by the power of God the Father. Finally, as I am sure you are aware, this renaming of individuals is a fairly common practice in sacred scripture, where God (either directly or through an angel) gives a person a new name in order to indicate something important about his character and his place in the divine economy (e.g., [i]Genesis 32:24-32[/i]).

Edited June 8, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Damiano]

*["You keep repeating yourself over and over..."]

***I keep repeating myself because you have ears but do not "hear"...and eyes but do not "see". The Word of God describes you best: "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" [2 Corinthians 4:3-4].


*["...You say that we will burn in hell because of our beliefs, we say that our beliefs are the true Christian faith..."]

***Your faith is nothing but "christianized" paganism. Your can say anything that you want about your faith according to your Traditions...but you cannot say that your faith is the true faith and back it up with the dictates of Scripture...for the dictates of most of your dogmas are in direct OPPOSITION to Scripture. That is the reason why you and your church are in opposition to "sola scriptura"---->for if you can DESTROY the credibility of the Scriptures you can then postulate anything that you wish UNHINDERED from the dictates of "thus saith the Lord."


*["...You say that giving Mary the honour She deserves as the Mother of God is idolatry, we say it isn't..."]

***It does not matter WHAT you say...it only matters what the Scriptures say and they do NOT support you contentions. Too, your traditions are NOT inspired of God---ONLY the Scriptures are [2 Timothy 3:16]. You are not unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' day who trusted in their traditions and were rebuked by Christ for them: "...ye made the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition" [Matthew 15:6].


*["...If you will not take the time to try and actually refute our beliefs, which are founded in Scripture and the Tradition of the Apostles..."]

***I have gone to great lengths to refute your specious and unbiblical doctrines and document everything I say---you know it and I know it. Your objections are just a strawman to try and minimize my remarks so as to justify your errors. You get no cigar here.

The vast majority of your doctrines are NOT founded on the Scriptures. In point of fact your church holds the Scriptures in LOW REGARD and uses them SPARING because your doctrines are in OPPOSITION to them. The reality is that your dogmas are the end result of speculations, assumptions not supported in Scripture and extra-biblical writings which have no basis in fact.


*["...You have already made your point that you think we are all going to be condemned if we do not submit to your personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture..."]

***The Scriptures speak for themselves...and they are CLEAR about WHO the ONLY Saviour is IS---and that WHO is the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is NONE other name UNDER HEAVEN given among men, whereby we must be SAVED" [Acts 4:12]. Isn't that clear enough for you? Are you so dense that you can't understand that? Jesus Christ has NO need of a co-redeemer to assist Him in the dispensing of salvation for He alone is the Lord of Salvation...and that is the VERY NAME that the angel told Mary to give Him in [Luke 1:31]...JESUS = "The Lord is salvation."


*["...and obviously we are not buying it..."]

***I have no control over that.


*["But instead of going more in depth, you keep repeating the same things over and over again."]

***Another strawman. The truth of the matter is you don't understand the Scriptures nor believes them that you might be saved.


Damiano

[Marie-Therese]

Damiano,

Your attitude is despicable. You lack in the simplest graces and exhibit no true love for your brethren, as you claim to...not because you are 'reproving your brethren' but because you preach your viewpoint with nothing but contempt.

Btw, I was raised a Southern Baptist and was in the protestant faith for 30 years. I am probably more aware of what the Catholic Church actually says (hence my conversion), than what you exhibit as an apostate from a Catholic family who was, obviously, poorly catechized...not to mention I also understand the protestant faith much more profoundly. When you have been protestant for 30 years, get back to me.

Your hatred and vitriol are pathetic excuses for evangelization. I don't ordinarily post such language, but your lack of even common civility is inexcusable. May God have mercy on your soul.

I also don't do this either, but I am stating publicly that I am putting you on ignore, so you don't have to waste time responding to me.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 June 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1276023052' post='2125771']
No one has argued in this thread that Mary was not a recipient of grace; and so I am unclear as to why you have asserted this point against us when in fact all Catholics agree that Mary received grace from God, who alone is the source of grace.

Now with that out of the way, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that [i]Luke 1:28[/i] and [i]Ephesians 1:6[/i] use two different forms of the Greek word for "grace." In the case of the text from [i]Luke[/i] the word used is κεχαριτωμένη (perfect past participle), which conveys the meaning of an action completed fully in the past, but which continues in the present moment, and without any indication that it will end in the future; while in [i]Ephesians[/i] the word ἐχαρίτωσεν (indicative active aorist) is used, which conveys the sense of a past action regardless of its extent, progress, or duration. Moreover, the Angel Gabriel in the Gospel pericope from [i]Luke[/i], instead of addressing Mary by her proper name, hails her as κεχαριτωμένη, thus using that word in a titular manner, which means that the word κεχαριτωμένη becomes a name for Mary, just as Πέτρος became a name for the Apostle Simon bar Jonah in the Gospel of [i]Matthew[/i] (see [i]Matthew 16:18[/i]). In the former case, Mary - by the word of the Angel - is addressed with the title "she who has been, and is, completely graced"; while in the latter case, Jesus calls the Apostle Simon by the name "Rock" after Simon affirms Christ's divine sonship as an act of revelation given to him (i.e., to Simon Peter) by the power of God the Father. Finally, as I am sure you are aware, this renaming of individuals is a fairly common practice in sacred scripture, where God (either directly or through an angel) gives a person a new name in order to indicate something important about his character and his place in the divine economy (e.g., [i]Genesis 32:24-32[/i]).
[/quote]

Wonder if you will receive a response to this wonderful post?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1276037571' post='2125962']
The Word of God describes you best:
[/quote]

After reading your latest post, I am afraid to see what verse in the Scriptures describes [i]you[/i] best.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1275993472' post='2125584']

***I always justify and defend myself...that's what infuriates you and your friends. As for having an open dialogue with you---it is impossible. Your standard of authority (Sola Ecclesia) is contrary to mine (Sola Scriptura)...so we have NOTHING to talk about.


[/quote]

Sola Scriptura presents a problem in that language can be interpreted/translated in different ways or misinterpreted to suit some people. This we have seen time and again and is why we have so many splits from the Church. If it could be clearly understood by all then we all could rely entirely on our own reading and Sola Scriptura would be valid. Because of these problems God gave the Spirit to the apostles to teach and carry on the work of Jesus. For an individual to say they can rely on Sola Scriptura is to put themselves high up on a pedestal, which is not in line with the Christian teaching of humility.

[quote name='Damiano' date='09 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1276037571' post='2125962']

***Another strawman. The truth of the matter is you don't understand the Scriptures nor believes them that you might be saved.


Damiano
[/quote]

The logistics say that the many are more likely to be correct rather than the lone wolf who is easy prey for the devil. God is not a fool, he would not send his son to fail which would be the case if you are correct and the Catholic Church is wrong.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Selah]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 June 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1276039118' post='2125970']
After reading your latest post, I am afraid to see what verse in the Scriptures describes [i]you[/i] best.
[/quote]

[Damiano]

*["Your attitude is despicable..."]

***A subjective conclusion.


*["...You lack in the simplest graces and exhibit no true love for your brethren..."]

***You collectively are not my brethren.


*["...Btw, I was raised a Southern Baptist and was in the protestant faith for 30 years. I am probably more aware of what the Catholic Church actually says (hence my conversion)..."]

***There are millions of people who have affiliations with the protestant faith...many longer than you. The duration of your affiliation with that faith does not mean that you were ever redeemed by the Blood of Christ. So you came out that you might be made manifest that you were not of that faith...you are an apostate. You are an apostate because you left a conservative Bible-Believing group of Christians who preach the Gospel of Christ...to join a "christianized" pagan religion which denies that Jesus Christ is the ONLY redeemer and shares His glory with a co-redeemer who is the QUEEN OF HEAVEN!

Your claim that you allegedly are "more aware" of what the Catholic Church says CONFIRMS that you NEVER were saved to begin with...and do not have an "unction from the Holy One" or know all things [1 John 2:20]. The fact that you believe that Mary collaborated with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation is a DENIAL of His role as the ONLY Savior...and because of that DENIAL you WILL perish!


*["...than what you exhibit as an apostate from a Catholic family who was, obviously, poorly catechized...not to mention I also understand the protestant faith much more profoundly. When you have been protestant for 30 years, get back to me..."]

***N/A


*["...I also don't do this either, but I am stating publicly that I am putting you on ignore, so you don't have to waste time responding to me."]

***Ah gee whiz...here I wrote all this stuff and you tell me at the very end that you're placing me on ignore? That's cold!

Damiano

[HisChildForever]

So, what, are we all going to Hell? And put on a jacket if you're cold. Here, you can borrow mine, 'cause I suppose I won't need it where I'm going.

[HisChildForever]

You know what's interesting, your name is the name of a convent in Assisi. San Damiano.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 04:34 AM' timestamp='1275647666' post='2123568']
You are mistaken. The Scriptures declare that Mary was a born sinner as is all of humanity and, as such, is not sinless: "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...[/quote]
Alas, the word translated as "all" (πᾶς) in the Greek of Romans 3:23 is richer in meaning that you admit in your post, because it can stand individually for everyone or it can stand collectively for some of all types, i.e., for many persons within a group.

Clearly it cannot be taken to mean every single man, because if that were the case it would include Christ, and we know that He is not sinful.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Damiano' date='09 June 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1276044029' post='2126013']
*["Your attitude is despicable..."]

***A subjective conclusion.
[/quote]
It's also very sad because it's lacking in the presence of Christ. I know Jesus got mad and sent people running from the temple but that would have been for some intelligent lesson. Your behavious is not the way I imagine Christ would behave towards those who disagreed with him.


[quote]*["...You lack in the simplest graces and exhibit no true love for your brethren..."]

***You collectively are not my brethren.

[/quote]
Then you are not of Christ. We are all children of God and brethren to each other. If you don't think we are your brethren then you are not a child of God, you are lost.


[quote] The fact that you believe that Mary collaborated with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation is a DENIAL of His role as the ONLY Savior...and because of that DENIAL you WILL perish!
[/quote]
That's not right. I'm an assistant to Christ in his role as saviour. 'Marie Therese' is also and so are all the true Christians of the world. I say true because many Catholics are not and many Protestants are not and many Muslims are not but some are even if they don't know it. But of course there are tiers of importance. Mary being at the top and people like me being a stone that supports the sole of the shoe of the body of Christ. Mary is the Queen of heaven because God made her specifically for the purpose of her role as Mother of Jesus. If you can't see that you're blind.



[quote]***Ah gee whiz...here I wrote all this stuff and you tell me at the very end that you're placing me on ignore? That's cold!

Damiano
[/quote]

Aren't you lucky that Jesus won't put you on ignore, well not while you are still alive anyhow.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Mark of the Cross