Too Much Emphasis Of The Virgin Mary?

[Damiano]

*["...we know that Christ was sinless, yet Romans 3:23 says 'all' have sinned; since Christ did not sin, 'all' cannot be absolute..."]

***Dear Lady:

Paul explained that "no difference" existed among HUMAN BEINGS because ALL HAVE SINNED. Romans 3:23 is referring to HUMAN BEINGS and not to Christ because Christ is God and cannot sin. Since it applies only to HUMAN BEINGS it is absolute...(i.e., ALL (human beings) have sinned). Not only did ALL sin, but also ALL "fall short." The simple fact is that as a sinner not a single human being by his own efforts is able to measure up to the glory of God. God's glory is His splendor, the outward manifestation of His attributes.


*["If 'all' is not absolute, then one can be inclined to believe (based on other Scriptural verses and Church teaching) that Mary is also an exception..."]

***ALL is absolute for the reasons cited above


*["...Hopefully you understand my confusion with your argument..."]

***Yes, I do understand your confusion with my argument. You do not understand the Scriptures because you rely on the traditions of the Church, the teachings of the Magisterium, writings of the Early Church fathers, declarations of the Church councils, etc. Too, you do not believe that the Scriptures are the sole authority pertaining to the things of God. In other words you do NOT believe in Sola Scriptura---but believe only in Sola Ecclesia. Because of that you and I can never have a meaningful dialogue. I don't want to insult you by saying this because you seem like a pretty nice person...but I do think that we should end it all here because it will get us nowhere.

Damiano














To summarize again what you are saying: Romans 3:23 says that "all" have sinned and Mary is included, but Christ cannot be included because the Scriptures clearly state Him as God; and here I insert that if Christ cannot be included then "all" is not absolute, for it is illogical to suppose that "all" is absolute in one context (i.e. Mary) but not absolute in another (i.e. Jesus Christ).

Indeed, I am afraid you do not understand the great need Mary had of a Savior. One can claim that Mary needed a Savior more than the rest of mankind, for her immaculate conception and sinless life was only made possible by the intervention of Christ. As you stated, the Son existed before He was made flesh - it was His intervention that prevented Mary from being conceived with original sin. Without Christ and His divine intervention, Mary would have been born with original sin upon her soul like every single human being before her.

Recall that I mentioned the "founding fathers" of Protestantism in another post to you. Your rejection of Marian devotion is a few hundred years old, whereas my acceptance of Marian devotion is a couple thousand years old. In truth, your rejection is a fairly new branch of Christianity and is not founded on any history - Catholic or Protestant.
[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Damiano' date='06 June 2010 - 08:00 AM' timestamp='1275825650' post='2124525']
Paul explained that "no difference" existed among HUMAN BEINGS because ALL HAVE SINNED. Romans 3:23 is referring to HUMAN BEINGS and not to Christ because Christ is God and cannot sin. Since it applies only to HUMAN BEINGS it is absolute...(i.e., ALL (human beings) have sinned). Not only did ALL sin, but also ALL "fall short." The simple fact is that as a sinner not a single human being by his own efforts is able to measure up to the glory of God. God's glory is His splendor, the outward manifestation of His attributes. [/quote]

Yes, Christ is fully divine, but He is [u]also[/u] fully human. He "counts" as a human being and therefore he is either (1) included in Romans 3:23 or (2) not included in Romans 3:23 because "all" is not used in absolute terms. We know that "(1)" cannot be possible because Christ is God and cannot sin, so therefore "(2)" is the only logical conclusion.

[quote] ***Yes, I do understand your confusion with my argument. You do not understand the Scriptures because you rely on the traditions of the Church, the teachings of the Magisterium, writings of the Early Church fathers, declarations of the Church councils, etc. Too, you do not believe that the Scriptures are the sole authority pertaining to the things of God. In other words you do NOT believe in Sola Scriptura---but believe only in Sola Ecclesia. Because of that you and I can never have a meaningful dialogue. I don't want to insult you by saying this because you seem like a pretty nice person...but I do think that we should end it all here because it will get us nowhere. [/quote]

I appreciate your civility in our disagreement. I would like to point out that the reason why you have the very Bible you are quoting from (albeit it is a "watered down" version) is because of a Church council.

I would truly like to hear what you think of my previous statement,

[b]Recall that I mentioned the "founding fathers" of Protestantism in another post to you. Your rejection of Marian devotion is a few hundred years old, whereas my acceptance of Marian devotion is a couple thousand years old. In truth, your rejection is a fairly new branch of Christianity and is not founded on any history - Catholic or Protestant.[/b]

[Bennn]

If God can command a Seraph to purify Isaiah's lips with a heated cole, He can preserve Mary from being conceived with original sin. Or do you think that God is bound by the barriers of time? If that was so, the spirits of the just would have been forever lost and they would not have entered the gates of Heaven, when Christ opened it on the Cross. But you know very well that this is not true and that the souls of the OT prophets, patriarchs and saints were also saved by the Blood of Christ. They simply had to wait in Sheol until the First Advent of Jesus. If He did this, what makes you think He can't go further and sanctify someone with His Blood before She is conceived? Of course, this has happened only to one person and will never happen to anyone again. But then again, never will any other person conceive the Son of God in her womb again either. It was an extraordinary grace, given to the Blessed Virgin, so that She could be an Immaculate Temple through which the Lord would enter into the world.

It is sad that so many people will not believe in the wondrous power of God. Mary Herself exclaimed in joy: "Great is that which He has done to Me!"

How illogical it is to hear people condemning those who ask Jesus' Mother to pray for them, while they do not hesitate asking their own friends for intercession. Are the friends that you can see so much better than the Mother of God, just because you can see them?

+Pax Domini,
Ben

Edited June 6, 2010 by Bennn

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Bennn' date='06 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1275835964' post='2124553']
If God can command a Seraph to purify Isaiah's lips with a heated cole, He can preserve Mary from being conceived with original sin. Or do you think that God is bound by the barriers of time? If that was so, the spirits of the just would have been forever lost and they would not have entered the gates of Heaven, when Christ opened it on the Cross. But you know very well that this is not true and that the souls of the OT prophets, patriarchs and saints were also saved by the Blood of Christ. They simply had to wait in Sheol until the First Advent of Jesus. If He did this, what makes you think He can't go further and sanctify someone with His Blood before She is conceived? Of course, this has happened only to one person and will never happen to anyone again. But then again, never will any other person conceive the Son of God in her womb again either. It was an extraordinary grace, given to the Blessed Virgin, so that She could be an Immaculate Temple through which the Lord would enter into the world.

It is sad that so many people will not believe in the wondrous power of God. Mary Herself exclaimed in joy: "Great is that which He has done to Me!"

How illogical it is to hear people condemning those who ask Jesus' Mother to pray for them, while they do not hesitate asking their own friends for intercession. Are the friends that you can see so much better than the Mother of God, just because you can see them?

+Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]
Excellent post.

[Lil Red]

why keep beating your head against a brick wall?

[MIKolbe]

i'm was kinda hoping someone throws in the beating-a-dead-horse emoticon.

[Nihil Obstat]

[img]http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg[/img]

[HisChildForever]

Well he has been nice to me, I thought I would take the opportunity to engage in civil dialogue.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='06 June 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1275852048' post='2124677']
Well he has been nice to me, I thought I would take the opportunity to engage in civil dialogue.
[/quote]
I agree. His posts have been a bit less vitriolic of late, not charitable [i]per se[/i], but less offensive.

[Apotheoun]

It might be better for Phatmassers to actually engage Damiano intellectually, rather than simply belittle him. Now, I admit that I have made fun of many of his posts in the past, because he uses a style (all caps and the like) that looks rather foolish, but in certain recent threads he has presented his viewpoint with less [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks, and we should encourage him to present his views without anti-Catholic polemics.

Once he has done that, we should engage his theological arguments, and show why he is in doctrinal error (see for example my post in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105559&view=findpost&p=2124634"]Marian Devotion[/url] thread where I point out the Nestorian nature of his comments). He may not listen to what we say, but that is beyond our control. All we can do is respond by presenting the Catholic position clearly and with charity.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 June 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1275863557' post='2124895']
It might be better for Phatmassers to actually engage Damiano intellectually, rather than simply belittle him. Now, I admit that I have made fun of many of his posts in the past, because he uses a style (all caps and the like) that looks rather foolish, but in certain recent threads he has presented his viewpoint with less [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks, and we should encourage him to present his views without anti-Catholic polemics.

Once he has done that, we should engage his theological arguments, and show why he is in doctrinal error (see for example my post in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105559&view=findpost&p=2124634"]Marian Devotion[/url] thread where I point out the Nestorian nature of his comments). He may not listen to what we say, but that is beyond our control. All we can do is respond by presenting the Catholic position clearly and with charity.
[/quote]
Agreed

[Bennn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 June 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1275863557' post='2124895']
It might be better for Phatmassers to actually engage Damiano intellectually, rather than simply belittle him. Now, I admit that I have made fun of many of his posts in the past, because he uses a style (all caps and the like) that looks rather foolish, but in certain recent threads he has presented his viewpoint with less [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks, and we should encourage him to present his views without anti-Catholic polemics.

Once he has done that, we should engage his theological arguments, and show why he is in doctrinal error (see for example my post in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105559&view=findpost&p=2124634"]Marian Devotion[/url] thread where I point out the Nestorian nature of his comments). He may not listen to what we say, but that is beyond our control. All we can do is respond by presenting the Catholic position clearly and with charity.
[/quote]

Amen.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

[jmjtina]

[quote]Because of that you and I can never have a meaningful dialogue. I don't want to insult you by saying this because you seem like a pretty nice person...but I do think that we should end it all here because it will get us nowhere.[/quote]

Wow, I don't know if I should go after your Sola Scriptura or your Mother of God diss. I could state that your need for the bible instead of your need for Jesus is heretical. I could also state that instead of having "Bible" colleges and schools, you should have "Christian" colleges and schools. Instead of having "Jesus alone" you have "Scripture Alone", thus your focus is on the bible and not the Lord Jesus. Don't you think that a person who makes the statements above knows NOTHING about the bible OR what you believe in or the basics of Sola Scriptura? You'd probably think I'm an idiot.

That's exactly how you sound. You won't even try to know the basics of what we believe? We aren't asking you to convert, we are asking you to understand where we are coming from, justify and defend your position, and have an open dialogue. Statements such as "Since you don't believe XYZ, we can't have a meaningful conversation" is ridiculous. Why are you here anyway? Luckily for you, when people have misconceptions about Sola Scriptura, I can clear it up. Not because I believe in it (I have to add near the end of the conversation why it isn't scripturally based) but If I had to explain it, I could. I understand it. And probably better than some other christians who did believe in it. I don't say this to boast, I say it to illustrate my point. You couldn't even state what a marian devotion is, it's history, without sounding like a tabloid that feeds on misconceptions and lies. At least, if you aren't going to believe in it, know what you aren't believing in! We've had different denominations who understood what we believed and could really debate. Open dialouge starts with understanding the discussion. Something your choose not to educate yourself on at all. Which isn't the first time someone who believed in Sola Scriptura has done and it won't be the last.

Mary, points us to her Son. There is something about Mary, and if one of your early "Protestant Church Father's" is Athanasius, then you are disagreeing with him as well. I don't know how much time to spend on you. I've got to clean anyway.

[Damiano]

*["Then how could she be full of grace at the time of the Annunciation?"]

***You evidently don"t know what "full of grace" means. "Full of grace" is a term used of ALL BELIEVERS in [Ephesians 1:6], where it is translated "accepted." This portrays Mary as a RECIPIENT, NOT a DISPENSER, of divine grace. Here's what [Ephesians 1:6] says...to wit: "To the praise of the glory of his GRACE, wherein he hath made US (i.e., believers) ACCEPTED in the beloved" [Ephesians 1:6].

Damiano

[Damiano]

*["Wow, I don't know if I should go after your Sola Scriptura or your Mother of God diss..."]

***Toss a coin.


*["...I could state that your need for the bible instead of your need for Jesus is heretical. I could also state that instead of having 'Bible' colleges and schools, you should have 'Christian' colleges and schools. Instead of having 'Jesus alone' you have Scripture Alone', thus your focus is on the bible and not the Lord Jesus. Don't you think that a person who makes the statements above knows NOTHING about the bible OR what you believe in or the basics of Sola Scriptura? You'd probably think I'm an idiot..."]

***I don't think about you at all.


*["That's exactly how you sound. You won't even try to know the basics of what we believe? We aren't asking you to convert..."]

***I know exactly what you believe because my whole family is Catholic and I was educated in Catholic schools through college.


*["...we are asking you to understand where we are coming from, justify and defend your position, and have an open dialogue..."]

***I always justify and defend myself...that's what infuriates you and your friends. As for having an open dialogue with you---it is impossible. Your standard of authority (Sola Ecclesia) is contrary to mine (Sola Scriptura)...so we have NOTHING to talk about.


*["...Why are you here anyway?..."]

***I am here to preach the gospel according to the Scriptures (which you DON'T accept) so that your blood will not be on my hands when you come before the Saviour at the Great White Throne judgment seat and He consigns you into the Lake of Fire for denying Him as the ONLY SAVIOR for your sins.


*["Luckily for you, when people have misconceptions about Sola Scriptura, I can clear it up. Not because I believe in it (I have to add near the end of the conversation why it isn't scripturally based) but If I had to explain it, I could. I understand it..."]

***You understand nothing. If you understood the things you boast about you would not be a member of the Catholic Church.


*["And probably better than some other christians who did believe in it. I don't say this to boast, I say it to illustrate my point..."]

***You are not a Christian...you are a Catholic who doesn't know what she is talking about...and somewhat of a "blowhard" to boot.


*["...You couldn't even state what a marian devotion is..."]

***Yes I can...and I can define it in one word--->IDOLATRY!!!


*["...We've had different denominations who understood what we believed and could really debate. Open dialouge starts with understanding the discussion..."]

***True Christians don't have ecumenical dialogue with apostates, unbelievers, deceivers, etc., but, rather, reproves them.


*["Something your choose not to educate yourself on at all. Which isn't the first time someone who believed in Sola Scriptura has done and it won't be the last."]

***Correct.


*["...Mary, points us to her Son..."].

***The Mary of the Bible does indeed point to her Son...but the "mary" of Catholicism is "another mary" which conflicts with the blessed Mary of Sola Scriptura.


*["I don't know how much time to spend on you. I've got to clean anyway."]

***Don't spend any time on me...clean your house and make dinner for yours kids.

Damiano