Too Much Emphasis Of The Virgin Mary?

[Apotheoun]

A truly spiritual emphasis upon the Theotokos will always lead one to a deeper communion with Christ.

[Selah]

Old thread

[rhetoricfemme]

[i]1) How can you have a personal relationship with Jesus, if you focus on Mary?[/i]
Why can't a person focus on both of them? As long as Mary isn't be worshiped... Jesus is our one and only Savior, so yeah. But there is certainly something to be said for the woman who was chosen by God to carry His Immaculate Son in [u]her[/u] [u]womb[/u].

[i]2) How is honoring Mary honoring Jesus?[/i]
Jesus honored and respected His mother. So we should all be honoring and respecting our mothers. And if we are all brothers and sisters through Christ, then isn't Mary also our mother?

[i]3) Since Jesus is one with God, why do you Catholics give as much attention to Mary as you do with Jesus?[/i]
Personally, I think I give more attention to Jesus than to Mary. He's my Savior, and I try to remember and thank Him and emulate Him daily. It doesn't always work out, but that's being human for ya. But yes. Jesus is what I'm striving for, and Mary is helpful in reminding me that her son is the goal. After all, wasn't everything Mary did for Jesus? For God?

[i]4) Mary ain't gonna get you to heaven, only Jesus.[/i]
Well, duh. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate all she is and all she's done. Honestly, I think I'm a better mother because of Mary. The Hail Mary helps me, and sometimes when I get frustrated or don't know what to do with my little one, I just think about how Mary would have handled things.

[Resurrexi]

[img]http://www.mystfx.ca/academic/catholic-studies/art/botticelli-the_annunciation.jpg[/img]

Ave, gratia plena, Dominus tecum!

[Selah]

Hail, Blessed Queen of Heaven! Mother of mercy, we love you so!

And Rexi, I love that beautiful picture of the Annunciation

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 May 2010 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1275157346' post='2120234']
[img]http://www.mystfx.ca/academic/catholic-studies/art/botticelli-the_annunciation.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
[img]http://www.joeroth12.com/photos/Recognition/HeismanTrophyLogo.jpg[/img]

[Selah]

Gabriel looks awesome in that picture.

[Luigi]

Devotion to Mary balances the heavily male concept of God - Father & Son are male, Spirit is neuter or male. Mary is a feminine presence closely associated with God - not God herself, but singularly honored by God (through her vocation and her asssumption).

[Damiano]

*["...Mary was the sinless mother of God..."]

***You are mistaken. The Scriptures declare that Mary was a born SINNER as is ALL of humanity and, as such, is NOT sinless: "...for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...and again: "Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me" [Psalm 51:5]. Also she KNEW and ACKNOWLEDGED her SINFULNESS and need of a Savior by her prayer: "And Mary said, 'My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE of his handmaiden (i.e., bondservant): for, behold, from hence-forth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things and holy is HIS name'" [Luke 1:46-49].

Damiano

[MIKolbe]

YOU are MistaKen!

The FAct IS tHat MaRy was PRESERVED frOM sIn IN VIEW OF thE MerITS of CHRIST. ThIs DOEs nOT logicaLLy follow that she did NOT need a Savior; nOR the Fact That she NEEDed a SavIOR mean ShE WAS nOt Without the STAIN of sin.

My CAPITALIzation is a LITTLE oFF. So srY.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 06:34 AM' timestamp='1275647666' post='2123568']
*["...Mary was the sinless mother of God..."]

***You are mistaken. The Scriptures declare that Mary was a born SINNER as is ALL of humanity and, as such, is NOT sinless: "...for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...and again: "Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me" [Psalm 51:5]. Also she KNEW and ACKNOWLEDGED her SINFULNESS and need of a Savior by her prayer: "And Mary said, 'My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR. For he hath regarded the LOW ESTATE of his handmaiden (i.e., bondservant): for, behold, from hence-forth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things and holy is HIS name'" [Luke 1:46-49].

Damiano
[/quote]

If you believe that the word "all" includes Mary, then it must include Christ as well - Christ was born into this world like every other human person, for He is fully human while fully divine. Can you explain why Mary is included in this verse but Christ is not? (I assume you believe Christ is not included).

Furthermore, Mary needed Christ the Savior - just in a different way. Whereas Christ has saved us from sin (original and actual), He preserved Mary from original sin.

[Selah]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='04 June 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1275657299' post='2123591']
YOU are MistaKen!

The FAct IS tHat MaRy was PRESERVED frOM sIn IN VIEW OF thE MerITS of CHRIST. ThIs DOEs nOT logicaLLy follow that she did NOT need a Savior; nOR the Fact That she NEEDed a SavIOR mean ShE WAS nOt Without the STAIN of sin.

My CAPITALIzation is a LITTLE oFF. So srY.
[/quote]


You mean...

U R MISTAEKn !1!1!!!11

DAFACt Is TAHT MaRY wAS pREsARV3D FROM SIN IN VEIW OF TeH MERITS OF CHriSt1!!!1!111 tHIs DO3s NoT loGICALY FOLOW TAHT ShA DiD NOT nEeED A SAVIoR NOR Teh FACT TaHT SHE NeEED3D A SAVIOR M3AN SHa WAS NoT WITHOuT tEH StANE OF SiN 11!111! oMG WTf

mAHCApITALIzATION iS A LiTL3 Of1!!!! LOL SO SRY !!!1111!1

[Damiano]

*["If you believe that the word 'all' includes Mary, then it must include Christ as well - Christ was born into this world like every other human person, for He is fully human while fully divine. Can you explain why Mary is included in this verse but Christ is not? (I assume you believe Christ is not included)."]

***Hello Lady:

I am sorry that it took so long to get back to you...and I hope that my answer will be of benefit to you.

This is not a question of whether Jesus sinned...because the Bible clearly says that Jesus did NOT sin [2 Corinthians 5:21;1 Peter 2:22]. The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to "impeccability" believe that Jesus could NOT have sinned. Those who hold to "peccability" believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did NOT. The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was "impeccable"...that He could NOT have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full DEITY and full HUMANITY so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" [Colossians 1:19]. [Colossians 2:9] adds, "For in Christ all the fullness of the DEITY lives in bodily form."

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are...in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature [Matthew 4:1;Hebrews 2:18;4:15;James 1:13]. Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do...therefore sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

Jesus knows what itis like to be tempted...but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man [1 Corinthians 10:13]. These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: "The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life" [1 John 2:16]. If you examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we were...but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God [Romans 6:2, 16-22].


*["Furthermore, Mary needed Christ the Savior - just in a different way. Whereas Christ has saved us from sin (original and actual), He preserved Mary from original sin."]

***You are mistaken. The Scriptures are clear...Mary needed Christ because she was a SINNER and needed a Saviour [Luke 1:46-55]. A person who is SINLESS does NOT need a Saviour! Mary was the offspring of Adam and Eve and, as such, inherited their fallen nature and died and returned to the ground as they did...and as we all will. But God in His mercy sent us His only begotten Son to reconcile us unto Himself...and blessed Mary to serve as the vessel to bring Him forth into the world. She was the "vessel"---NOT the means of Reconciliation--->only Christ is. Jesus is the Eternal Son of God and was in the Beginning with God and was God [John 1:1-2]. "All things were made by him..."---including Mary [John 1:3]. He came to redeem her too...and that is why she acknowledged that in [Luke 1:47-49].

BOTTOM LINE: The Scriptures do NOT support your church's or your contentions about the Virgin Mary.

Damiano

[HisChildForever]

Damiano,

I am glad that we agree on the nature of Christ, fully man and fully God. It does appear, however, that your argument points to a contradiction in the Scriptures - for we know that Christ was sinless, yet Romans 3:23 says "all" have sinned; since Christ did not sin, "all" cannot be absolute. If "all" is not absolute, then one can be inclined to believe (based on other Scriptural verses and Church teaching) that Mary is also an exception. Hopefully you understand my confusion with your argument. To summarize again what you are saying: Romans 3:23 says that "all" have sinned and Mary is included, but Christ cannot be included because the Scriptures clearly state Him as God; and here I insert that if Christ cannot be included then "all" is not absolute, for it is illogical to suppose that "all" is absolute in one context (i.e. Mary) but not absolute in another (i.e. Jesus Christ).

Indeed, I am afraid you do not understand the great need Mary had of a Savior. One can claim that Mary needed a Savior more than the rest of mankind, for her immaculate conception and sinless life was only made possible by the intervention of Christ. As you stated, the Son existed before He was made flesh - it was His intervention that prevented Mary from being conceived with original sin. Without Christ and His divine intervention, Mary would have been born with original sin upon her soul like every single human being before her.

Recall that I mentioned the "founding fathers" of Protestantism in another post to you. Your rejection of Marian devotion is a few hundred years old, whereas my acceptance of Marian devotion is a couple thousand years old. In truth, your rejection is a fairly new branch of Christianity and is not founded on any history - Catholic or Protestant.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Damiano' date='05 June 2010 - 04:31 AM' timestamp='1275726676' post='2124022']
*["If you believe that the word 'all' includes Mary, then it must include Christ as well - Christ was born into this world like every other human person, for He is fully human while fully divine. Can you explain why Mary is included in this verse but Christ is not? (I assume you believe Christ is not included)."]

***Hello Lady:

I am sorry that it took so long to get back to you...and I hope that my answer will be of benefit to you.

This is not a question of whether Jesus sinned...because the Bible clearly says that Jesus did NOT sin [2 Corinthians 5:21;1 Peter 2:22]. The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to "impeccability" believe that Jesus could NOT have sinned. Those who hold to "peccability" believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did NOT. The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was "impeccable"...that He could NOT have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full DEITY and full HUMANITY so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" [Colossians 1:19]. [Colossians 2:9] adds, "For in Christ all the fullness of the DEITY lives in bodily form."

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are...in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature [Matthew 4:1;Hebrews 2:18;4:15;James 1:13]. Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do...therefore sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

Jesus knows what itis like to be tempted...but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man [1 Corinthians 10:13]. These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: "The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life" [1 John 2:16]. If you examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we were...but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God [Romans 6:2, 16-22].


*["Furthermore, Mary needed Christ the Savior - just in a different way. Whereas Christ has saved us from sin (original and actual), He preserved Mary from original sin."]

***You are mistaken. The Scriptures are clear...Mary needed Christ because she was a SINNER and needed a Saviour [Luke 1:46-55]. A person who is SINLESS does NOT need a Saviour! Mary was the offspring of Adam and Eve and, as such, inherited their fallen nature and died and returned to the ground as they did...and as we all will. But God in His mercy sent us His only begotten Son to reconcile us unto Himself...and blessed Mary to serve as the vessel to bring Him forth into the world. She was the "vessel"---NOT the means of Reconciliation--->only Christ is. Jesus is the Eternal Son of God and was in the Beginning with God and was God [John 1:1-2]. "All things were made by him..."---including Mary [John 1:3]. He came to redeem her too...and that is why she acknowledged that in [Luke 1:47-49].

BOTTOM LINE: The Scriptures do NOT support your church's or your contentions about the Virgin Mary.

Damiano
[/quote]

Then how could she be full of grace at the time of the Annunciation?