Justified Saint Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017368' date='Jul 5 2006, 04:04 AM'] quoting 3 or 4 saints does not demonstrate what the early church believed. Even if it did, you are putting the teachings of the early church over those of the medieval Church. [/quote] And you would be putting the teachings of the medieval Church over the whole (early, post-medieval etc.) Of course, to even think of the issue in these terms betrays a weak understanding of church history. [quote]Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.[/quote] The entire thread started with squabbling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted July 5, 2006 Author Share Posted July 5, 2006 I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo. Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you. John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 11:51 AM'] I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo. Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you. John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. [/quote] While I don't agree with the King James Version, I must agree with the sentiment of the Scripture. Isn't it wonderful how good Catholic saints like John record the words of Christ so beautifully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) Budge, [quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 11:51 AM'] Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you. [/quote] Catholicism is nowhere near Universalism. The Church claims to teach nothing but the Truth. Our current Pope was elected days after railing against a "dictatorship of relativism" and was soon criticized by a Fox News analyst for promoting a "dictatorship of certitude". Only in an alternate universe does a "universalist" Catholic Church exist. The Church's teachings are irreconcilable with the other religions you are trying to say the Church is uniting into a world-religion - a concept that contradicts logic and what can be clearly observed. [u][b]This is not universalist:[/b][/u] [quote][b]NOSTRA AETATE - THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS[/b] Indeed, [the Church] proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.[/quote] [quote][b]UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO - DECREE ON ECUMENISM[/b] The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature... For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.[/quote] Talking to other religions and recognizing when they get something right (Judaism and Islam are monotheist, ect.) is not universalism, it is recognizing the truth. When a Muslim says there is one God, do we say he is wrong? [quote]Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. [i]1 Corinthians 9:19-23[/i][/quote] God bless! Edited July 5, 2006 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 08:51 AM'] I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo. Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you. John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. [/quote] You seem to hijack your own threads with poor arguments and bad rhetoric. What of the Magi? Why were they led to worship the baby Jesus by following the star and their religion (i.e. astrology)? I am sorry you haven't given your position much thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Phatmass is not for Unity of all Religions, because such and idea is demonic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017653' date='Jul 5 2006, 03:25 PM'] You seem to hijack your own threads with poor arguments and bad rhetoric. What of the Magi? Why were they led to worship the baby Jesus by following the star and their religion (i.e. astrology)? I am sorry you haven't given your position much thought. [/quote] is astrology considered a relegion? God gives every person the grace nessecary for salvation, it is up to them wether or not they accept this grace, and what they do with it. but i don't think astrology leads to christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 blah I can't believe I just spent 20 mins reading this thread to be 'caught up'. I thought these sorts of threads were going to be gone after the re-phourmation?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017806' date='Jul 5 2006, 04:24 PM'] is astrology considered a relegion? [/quote] I didn't say astrology was a religion (though it very well could be argued so), but rather meant that astrology was part of their religion. [quote]God gives every person the grace nessecary for salvation, it is up to them wether or not they accept this grace, and what they do with it. but i don't think astrology leads to christ.[/quote] I am simply describing an event in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 3 2006, 10:52 PM'] I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.[/quote] Terribly sorry, but I am having trouble finding your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1018238' date='Jul 6 2006, 09:33 AM'] Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. [/quote] Oh, come on. Post them again. I hope some fruit to come of this ugly thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='jswranch' post='1018857' date='Jul 6 2006, 09:23 PM'] Oh, come on. Post them again. I hope some fruit to come of this ugly thread. [/quote] They were meant more as rhetorical questions and I assure they will bring no more fruit to this thread I asked to EENS: "Long live the inquisition?" "And for the unconverted do you prefer forced conversion or expulsion?" I admit that these were less than honest questions, but they were meant to show the absurdity of EENS's position (which they did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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