Phatmass FOR UNITY OF ALL RELIGIONS?

[Justified Saint]

I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:52 PM']
I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.
[/quote]

I think this post sounds hateful....

[jswranch]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1016932' date='Jul 3 2006, 08:11 PM']
i would not advocate for clothing laws, nor would i condemn them. WHAT I THINK about what clothes the jews hould wear when entering the vatican is, not relevant. what is important is that they existed in the past.[/quote] So if they are not important, then why do you bring it up?

Yes it is relevant. Earlier you said:
[quote]no but, he also did not let [Jews] have christian servants, he made them wear special dress so they could be identified, and he made them listen to sermons 4 times a years aimed at their conversion. this was also a special case. Protestantism was never allowed to be practiced in the Papal states, only Catholicism, with the exception of Judiasm.

You are indeed wrong. We catholics must not encourage, or harbor infdedils and allow them to pratice a false relegion. it is scandalous in its very nature, and has been condemned countless times by previous popes. Don't quote Vatican II, it is a complete break from the Traditional teachings of the Church.[/quote]

Apparently the pope back then thought it was important to make Jews dress differently, which you admit is not something you would be sad to see happen today. However, is not your indefference to whether or not the Pope decides such actions a break from tradition? If your strong, dogmatic desire is to keep with tradition, are you not required to demand that BXI makes non-Catholics wear designating clothing?


So you believe that the Pope should not have harbored the Jews from the Nazis?

Edited July 4, 2006 by jswranch

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 4 2006, 12:52 AM']
I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.
[/quote]


you are funny. i never adovcated murder. I see no Catholic state willing to execute heretics do you? you are the one who truly is advocating murder, the murder of the soul. what is more important, the murder of a person, or the murder of an eternal soul? Heretics murder people's souls, be leading them to hell. it is the Church's responsibility to make sure this does not happen. This is what the Church has always taught, im sorry if you don't like it.

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016987' date='Jul 4 2006, 01:30 AM']
So if they are not important, then why do you bring it up?

Yes it is relevant. Earlier you said:


Apparently the pope back then thought it was important to make Jews dress differently, which you admit is not something you would be sad to see happen today. However, is not your indefference to whether or not the Pope decides such actions a break from tradition? If your strong, dogmatic desire is to keep with tradition, are you not required to demand that BXI makes non-Catholics wear designating clothing?
So you believe that the Pope should not have harbored the Jews from the Nazis?
[/quote]


No it is not a break from Tradition. Some popes made jews dress differently, some did not. Once again NOT ALL POPES MADE JEWS WERE DIFFERENT CLOTHING!

ARE YOU CRAZY! Pope Pius XII is a venerable servant of God, and was a holy Traditional Pope. His actions during the holocaust are laudable. The Jews have always recieved special protection from the church. what the Nazis did was horrible, and Pius XII was a hero.

[quote]"As Cain was a wanderer and an outcast, not to be killed by anyone but marked with the sign of fear on his forehead, so the Jews . . . against whom the voice of the blood of Christ cries out . . . although they are not to be killed they must always be dispersed as wanderers upon the face of the earth."[/quote]
-Pope Innocent III

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017022' date='Jul 4 2006, 05:27 AM']
you are funny. i never adovcated murder. I see no Catholic state willing to execute heretics do you? you are the one who truly is advocating murder, the murder of the soul. what is more important, the murder of a person, or the murder of an eternal soul? Heretics murder people's souls, be leading them to hell. it is the Church's responsibility to make sure this does not happen. This is what the Church has always taught, im sorry if you don't like it.
[/quote]

What is disturbing is that you think it is a laughing matter. No Catholic state today would execute heretics though you have made explicit that you would desire them to. Execution of heretics was a contingent, historical response and a notable abberration from the teachings of the early church. I am sorry that phatmass allows people like you to spew their hate and ignorance.

There is very little difference from the fundamentalism practiced by people like "Budge" and yourself.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017033' date='Jul 4 2006, 08:54 AM']
What is disturbing is that you think it is a laughing matter. No Catholic state today would execute heretics though you have made explicit that you would desire them to. Execution of heretics was a contingent, historical response and a notable abberration from the teachings of the early church. I am sorry that phatmass allows people like you to spew their hate and ignorance.

There is very little difference from the fundamentalism practiced by people like "Budge" and yourself.
[/quote]


i guess all the popes and saints (including the angelic doctor) are fanatics and fundementalists? do you not care any for the souls being led astray by heretics?

[ReinnieR]

John 11:52???

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017058' date='Jul 4 2006, 07:02 AM']
i guess all the popes and saints (including the angelic doctor) are fanatics and fundementalists? do you not care any for the souls being led astray by heretics?
[/quote]

"To consign a heretic to death is to commit an [b]offence beyond atonement[/b]" -- St. John Chrysostom

"We wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of ecclesiastical discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve." -- St. Augustine

"For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, [b]but do not put them to death[/b]" -- Peter Canter

Your ahistoricity cannot account for the contingencies of ecclesiastical discipline and therefore you make fundamentalists out of the popes and saints -- a huge disservice to their memory.

The early church consistently taught that heresy was a matter of free will, therefore your utilitarian rhetoric is misplaced in this discussion (as all utilitarianism is).

[phatcatholic]

a note to all: pray before you post.

[jswranch]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1017208' date='Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM']
a note to all: pray before you post.
[/quote]
WILCO

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017150' date='Jul 4 2006, 01:37 PM']
"To consign a heretic to death is to commit an [b]offence beyond atonement[/b]" -- St. John Chrysostom

"We wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of ecclesiastical discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve." -- St. Augustine

"For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, [b]but do not put them to death[/b]" -- Peter Canter

Your ahistoricity cannot account for the contingencies of ecclesiastical discipline and therefore you make fundamentalists out of the popes and saints -- a huge disservice to their memory.

The early church consistently taught that heresy was a matter of free will, therefore your utilitarian rhetoric is misplaced in this discussion (as all utilitarianism is).
[/quote]


I think that is all good and well. I never said the church always practiced the killing of heretics, but She did during the middle ages, and i see nothing wrong with it if there are souls in danger. killing heretics is not optimal, in fact i would love to see them converted to the faith. In fact, i would not support the killing of heretics unless it was [b]absolutely nessecary[/b]. But to say that it is an offense to kill a heretic who endangers the souls of a large group of people is wrong.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017282' date='Jul 4 2006, 07:23 PM']
I think that is all good and well. I never said the church always practiced the killing of heretics, but She did during the middle ages, and i see nothing wrong with it if there are souls in danger. killing heretics is not optimal, in fact i would love to see them converted to the faith. In fact, i would not support the killing of heretics unless it was [b]absolutely nessecary[/b]. But to say that it is an offense to kill a heretic who endangers the souls of a large group of people is wrong.
[/quote]

That has not been your position, but you are welcome to change it. Your "if...then" statements logically entail a contradiction and lead to a most crass form of utilitarianism.

And if you have a problem with the offense of executing heretics as a normative condition than you can work that out on your own with St. John Chrysostom and the rest of the early church.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

quoting 3 or 4 saints does not demonstrate what the early church believed. Even if it did, you are putting the teachings of the early church over those of the medieval Church.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1017463' date='Jul 5 2006, 09:40 AM']
Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.
[/quote]
we sorry