Are Protestants heretics

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1012186' date='Jun 25 2006, 10:14 PM']
could it be possible protestants are formal heretics? That just means they know Catholic Dogma is X but they deny X anyway.
[/quote]
its possible.... its possible for catholics to be formal heretics as well.

[thessalonian]

Protestants teach heresy. Therefore they are in fact heretics. The only question is whether they are culpable or not.

[Era Might]

I don't think it's that black and white. Heresy implies a willful obstinacy against the Church. When a Catholic doesn't fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity, for example, and expresses a Trinitarian heresy, I don't think it would be accurate to call them a "heretic", formal or material. They simply haven't fully understood a point of Truth, and that's fine; it happens to everyone.

I think "material" heresy more appropriately refers to someone who does obstinately disobey the Chuch (a Catholic specifically), but who has not been formally judged by the Church.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1012579' date='Jun 26 2006, 01:23 PM']
I don't think it's that black and white. Heresy implies a willful obstinacy against the Church. When a Catholic doesn't fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity, for example, and expresses a Trinitarian heresy, I don't think it would be accurate to call them a "heretic", formal or material. They simply haven't fully understood a point of Truth, and that's fine; it happens to everyone.

I think "material" heresy more appropriately refers to someone who does obstinately disobey the Chuch (a Catholic specifically), but who has not been formally judged by the Church.
[/quote]
So if you have a Protestant who studies Catholic teachings but remains a Protestant, does that person ever become culpable?

At what point does that happen?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1012582' date='Jun 26 2006, 03:34 PM']
So if you have a Protestant who studies Catholic teachings but remains a Protestant, does that person ever become culpable?

At what point does that happen?
[/quote]

What you are asking for is in the area of judgement.
That is up to the judgement of God. We simply cannot say whether such a person has had the grace to sufficiently understand and embrace the Catholic faith. It is certainly a more serious and concerning matter for one who has it explained to them and they reject it so our prayers go out to you.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1012585' date='Jun 26 2006, 01:38 PM']It is certainly a more serious and concerning matter for one who has it explained to them and they reject it so our prayers go out to you.
[/quote]
But there is still purgatory for them either way, no?

<- doesn't believe in purgatory.

[thessalonian]

[quote]But there is still purgatory for them either way, no?[/quote]

One who has recieved the grace to convert but does not is not eligible for purgatory. Sorry.

By the way, I simply don't understand this objection to some final cleansing before heaven. (purgatory). Do you believe that you have no sin or no tendancy toward sin this day? Do you believe in imputed righteousness? If you believe either of these things then you have to believe there is some sort of cleansing at or after death becuase you cannot have any taint of imperfection when you enter heaven and you do up to your final moments on this earth. When I have pressed many protestants on this issue they either ignore it or eventually many of them have owned up to it.

You do believe in sanctification don't you? Well let's say Billy Graham is on a bus. A man living a very sinful life sits down with him. The man is on drugs, has a live in girlfriend, on alcohol, steals to make a living and has encouraged his girfriend in to several abortions. Well Billy converts him. But when the man goes home he would still have tendancies toward alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. that are habitual for him and that he must overcome. Well instead the bus goes off a cliff and both die. Now tell me how that man can take his habbits in to heaven with him? How does he get rid of them? His mind still is wired for those tendancies. Billy on the other hand is a faithful, married man. He is much more ready for heaven. Can't say whether he is perfected or not. But certainly something has to happen at a different level to purify him than the other man? If none of this is true than the process of sanctification to you must be unneccessary and of no eternal value. Help me understand how it could be otherwise.

[Franimus]

Great posts, Cam and thessalonian.
Since I previously had no clue there was a difference between "formal" and "material" heretics, I'm going with Cam's provided definition, and thus yes, Protestants are material heretics.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1012582' date='Jun 26 2006, 04:34 PM']So if you have a Protestant who studies Catholic teachings but remains a Protestant, does that person ever become culpable?

At what point does that happen?
[/quote]

I agree with Thess, that's something for God to judge. When someone genuinely tries to serve Christ, I respect their integrity, and don't assume that they are obstinately opposing the Truth. They just haven't come the point in their journey where others have.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1012377' date='Jun 26 2006, 08:16 AM']
its possible.... its possible for catholics to be formal heretics as well.
[/quote]


yup.


to answer Light and Truth:

a Protestant studying Catholic Teaching, yet remaing a protestant, would be much more culpable than a protestant who never met a Catholic, or who never had true knowledge of the Catholic Church. it is for God to decide. the Dogma is "No Salvation Outside the Church". [b]Souls that are not visibly part of the Church, but are saved by Ignorance Or BOB, or BOD, are the exception to this rule, so to speak, not the rule itself. [/b]

[son_of_angels]

I might note that all Protestant denominations and independents are not particularly "sola fide" nor "sola scriptura" and most are neither in actual practice.

Protestant could also define the simple heresy of refusing to submit to the magisterial authority and communion of the church, and having sprung historically from one of those denominations of the Reformation/Anabaptist era.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1012618' date='Jun 26 2006, 02:25 PM']
One who has recieved the grace to convert but does not is not eligible for purgatory. Sorry.

By the way, I simply don't understand this objection to some final cleansing before heaven. (purgatory). Do you believe that you have no sin or no tendancy toward sin this day? Do you believe in imputed righteousness? If you believe either of these things then you have to believe there is some sort of cleansing at or after death becuase you cannot have any taint of imperfection when you enter heaven and you do up to your final moments on this earth. When I have pressed many protestants on this issue they either ignore it or eventually many of them have owned up to it.

You do believe in sanctification don't you? Well let's say Billy Graham is on a bus. A man living a very sinful life sits down with him. The man is on drugs, has a live in girlfriend, on alcohol, steals to make a living and has encouraged his girfriend in to several abortions. Well Billy converts him. But when the man goes home he would still have tendancies toward alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. that are habitual for him and that he must overcome. Well instead the bus goes off a cliff and both die. Now tell me how that man can take his habbits in to heaven with him? How does he get rid of them? His mind still is wired for those tendancies. Billy on the other hand is a faithful, married man. He is much more ready for heaven. Can't say whether he is perfected or not. But certainly something has to happen at a different level to purify him than the other man? If none of this is true than the process of sanctification to you must be unneccessary and of no eternal value. Help me understand how it could be otherwise.
[/quote]
Are we not resurected in new, glorified bodies at judgment, at which time our fate will be decided?

[Budge]

I guess the fact that more Prots are becoming proto-Catholics--Emergent church movement etc...

complicates this one.

I dont mind that Rome consider me a heretic.

{I know I am by all rules especially being an EX-CATHOLIC, Im not put in the seperated brethern camp}

Thats ok, where I am with God is what matters.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1013712' date='Jun 28 2006, 07:16 AM']
Are we not resurected in new, glorified bodies at judgment, at which time our fate will be decided?
[/quote]


The resurrection of the body does not occur until the second coming. At the end of our life we undergo judgement however. That is pretty standard protestant as well as Catholic doctrine. Please deal with the issue at hand. How can an imputed righteous person go directly to heaven? What is the purpose of sanctification or is it really uneccessary with regard to eternity?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

I imagine that, if examined by God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, all of us would find that we believe in something that is incorrect concerning doctrine. This incorrect belief, in whatever area of doctrine it may be, would be considered heretical.