Are Protestants heretics

[michaelorapronobis]

Do any of you think Protestants are not material heretics? The Church's teaching is quite clear, but I want to know what you think.

[MC Just]

Yes. Of course I'll probably get scolded for saying that but. YES.

[Cam42]

Protestantism is a Christian heresy that has flourished since the sixteenth century after Christ. It says that man is saved by faith alone (sola fide), and not by works, and that the sole authority for doctrine is the Bible alone (sola scriptura), not any pope or council of bishops or tradition, however ancient or hallowed. It interpreted the Bible in such a way that the Catholic priesthood was no longer necessary.

G.K. Chesterson says, "Protestants are Catholics gone wrong; that is what is really meant by saying they are Christians . . . Thus a Calvinist is a Catholic obsessed with the Catholic idea of the sovereignty of God. But when he makes it mean that God wishes particular people to be damned, we may say with restraint that he has become a rather morbid Catholic. In point of fact he is a diseased Catholic; and the disease left to itself would be death or madness. But, as a matter of fact, the disease did not last long, and is itself now practically dead. But every step he takes back towards humanity is a step back towards Catholicism. Thus a Quaker is a Catholic obsessed with the Catholic idea of gentle simplicity and truth . . ."

People who adhere to Protestants in and of themselves are not heretics. But, Protestantism as a doctrine, is rightly called a heresy. Why? Because it properly fulfills the requirement as the Catechism defines it.

CCC 2089: "...Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same..."

Notice that catholic is NOT capitalized. I will provide the link, lest you think that it is a typo on my part.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm[/url]

So, is the Protestant doctrine a heresy? Yes.

While a person may adhere to a heretical principle like Protestantism, they are not necessarily guilty, on an individual level, of being a heretic.

How can this be? Protestantism is a heresy, by definition. See above. This does not change. This is a truth, so much so that the only correction for Protestantism is the recociliation of different Protestant denominations to themselves and then the "uber-Protestant" church to reconcile to Holy Mother Church.

If a person has no knowledge that he is not in a heretical state and is not taught that the defining truth is Catholicism, he is not a heretic. However, he is in adherance to a heretical prinicple.

In otherwords, a baptized Protestant churchman is not necessarily a heretic, but he does, de facto, adhere to a heretical prinicple.

This all changes when said churchman is exposed to Catholicism on both an intellectual and evangelical level and denies it. Why? Precisely because he is baptized. He then is deemed heretical, by definition. At any time before that he is in a state of either voluntary or involuntary doubt and/or incredulilty. Look to CCC 2088-2089.

If those who are not Catholic are not in some form of error, why convert them? Why the evangelization and catechesis?

"....there aren't too many protestants out there that aren't aware of the fact that they do not believe in the priesthood or the pope or transubstantiation."

Have they been properly evangelized and catechized? Have those same people been engaged on an intellectual level that would constitute AUTHENTIC conversion? Or are they simply going on preconceptions? There are qualifiers.

So, by my definition most DON'T AUTHENTICALLY know that they are in disagreement with the Church.

Again, if one who is not Catholic is authentically taught the Faith and they don't assent to it, they are in a state of voluntary or involutary doubt. Not heresy.

Prostestantism is still a heretical prinicple though. BTW, Protestantism denys any number of tenents that God has revealed to be true. Are they in error? If so, what is that error? Not the people mind you, the religion?

Does Protestantism exist? Yes. Does Protetantism contain those things that are contrary to Catholic teaching? Yes. Are most Protestants baptized? Yes. What is the defintion of heresy? ""Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same..."
CCC 2089

This is not only speaking of a Roman Catholic but also any Christian who is baptized and has an obstinate doubt about the faith.

Are you saying that a person baptized outside the Church is somehow less baptized? If you look closely, you will see that the CCC speaks of catholics not Catholics. Big difference. Does this in fact include those outside the Roman Catholic Church? Yes, how can I say that? The Orthodox Church is in a state of schism. That includes heresy. Protestantism is not
a schism, but it is a heresy. By definition.

Protestantism is more than an idea. It is a way of life. It is lived by those who are currently apotstates and those who live in a state of either involuntary or voluntary doubt, and in some cases yes, heresy. But the idea of Protestantism is in fact a heretical priniciple.

You ask, "What is the penalty for heresy?"

I answer that, "There is no salvation outside the Church."

You say, "You cannot have an heresy without the heretics. Heresy is not defined exclusively as an idea but as an idea actively promoted by.. a post baptismal person.

You cannot separate the two. An idea cannot be heresy on its own. So if they are not heretics because they have not been AUTHENTICALLY been catechized. Then what they believe would not be construed as heresy."

I would respond to that in this way. The Church expressly distinguishes between "formal" and "material" heretics. A "formal" heretic rejects the Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a "material" heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing.

So it would seem that Protestantism can in fact be a heresy and baptized protestants can and are, by the Church's definition, at the very least "material" heretics.

So, with that in mind, I would return to my first assertion, Protestantism is the greatest heresy.

[Era Might]

[quote]The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of "heresy" is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.

--Pope Benedict XVI, "The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood", pgs. 87-88[/quote]

[Semperviva]

probly not the best approach to starting a conversation with one, lol. soooo are you a [i]formal[/i] heretic or a [i]material[/i] one. ... interestingly, many protestants are "catholic" without realizing it. the closer they are to scripture and honest desire for christ, the more and mroe catholic they sound/act/pray, etc.

[MC Just]

oh nevermind.

Edited June 25, 2006 by MC Just

[MichaelF]

The Protestant "churches": Yes.

Individual protestants: Yes and no. If someone has been indoctrinated -from- childhood to be hostile to the True Faith, then that would be a case of invincible ignorance, and not truly their fault.

[Imprimatur]

Indeed yes...

[quote]IX. PRINCIPLES OF CHURCH LEGISLATION

The guiding principles in the Church's treatment of heretics are the following: Distinguishing between formal and material heretics, she applies to the former the canon, "Most firmly hold and in no way doubt that every heretic or schismatic is to have part with the Devil and his angels in the flames of eternal fire, unless before the end of his life he be incorporated with, and restored to the Catholic Church." No one is forced to enter the Church, but having once entered it through baptism, he is bound to keep the promises he freely made. To restrain and bring back her rebellious sons the Church uses both her own spiritual power and the secular power at her command. [b]Towards material heretics her conduct is ruled by the saying of St. Augustine: "Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected"[/b] (P. L., XXXIII, ep. xliii, 160). Pius IX, in a letter to the bishops of Italy (10 Aug., 1863), restates this Catholic doctrine: "It is known to Us and to You that they who are in invincible ignorance concerning our religion but observe the natural law . . . and are ready to obey God and lead an honest and righteous life, can, with the help of Divine light and grace, attain to eternal life . . . for God . . . will not allow any one to be eternally punished who is not wilfully guilty" (Denzinger, "Enchir.", n. 1529). X. (New Advent, Heresy, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm[/url])[/quote]

[Jaime]

Good post Camster!!


I would argue that if one wants to find heretics, it is easier to find them within the Catholic Church than within the protestant churches.

[Era Might]

[quote]Jack Van Impe makes me chuckle[/quote]
I <3 Jack Van Impe.

[homeschoolmom]

You said "van Impe"

[heavenseeker]

Yes but no it kind of depends how you look at it or maybe im just not fully understanding the question.

[Guest Rick777]

Yes I do.

[benedictaj]

[quote]Michael
Lurker
Group: Phatmasser
Posts: 3
Joined: 24-June 06
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Member No.: 4385[/quote]
Hi fellow kiwi!

And yes, I think protestants are material heretics... although, for some reason, they don't like it when I say it...




hehehehehe...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

could it be possible protestants are formal heretics? That just means they know Catholic Dogma is X but they deny X anyway.