Aloysius Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 oye vey...larry, aye aye aye of COURSE it will come to pass at the second coming of Jesus, but the "whore of Babylon" has absolutely no connection other than geographical to the past whore of babylon, and the future whore of babylon will not necessarily be in the same geographical location.. alll those symbolic things came to pass in the fall of Jerusalem, in the fall of the Roman Empire, each time. Christ came in glory each time and defeated them. But in the end time, He will come and judge the living and the dead and all those who are not part of His kingdom will be thrown to hell. He set up His kingdom in the Church, His kingdom has reigned for 1000 years after the fall of Jerusalem, it has reigned 1000 years after the fall of Rome, it could reign another 1000 years after the fall of the European Union for all i know, Revelation typifies the entire history of the Church, through the ages these symbols can be applied to different times, different lunatics bent on taking over the world, and then we can see the Catholic Church triumphing through it without a scratch. Revelation has been fulfilled many times throughout the centuries of Church history, and it's final fulfillment will end with a visible Glory and final damnation for those who reject Christ and His Church. The Prophecy of Revelation is rich, and is not confined to only one event, but to the whole 2000 yr. history of the Church. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 oye vey...larry, aye aye aye of COURSE it will come to pass at the second coming of Jesus, but the "whore of Babylon" has absolutely no connection other than geographical to the past whore of babylon, and the future whore of babylon will not necessarily be in the same geographical location.. alll those symbolic things came to pass in the fall of Jerusalem, in the fall of the Roman Empire, each time. Christ came in glory each time and defeated them. But in the end time, He will come and judge the living and the dead and all those who are not part of His kingdom will be thrown to hell. He set up His kingdom in the Church, His kingdom has reigned for 1000 years after the fall of Jerusalem, it has reigned 1000 years after the fall of Rome, it could reign another 1000 years after the fall of the European Union for all i know, Revelation typifies the entire history of the Church, through the ages these symbols can be applied to different times, different lunatics bent on taking over the world, and then we can see the Catholic Church triumphing through it without a scratch. Revelation has been fulfilled many times throughout the centuries of Church history, and it's final fulfillment will end with a visible Glory and final damnation for those who reject Christ and His Church. The Prophecy of Revelation is rich, and is not confined to only one event, but to the whole 2000 yr. history of the Church. Try this on what did Jesus say to question. This the Prophet of Daniel not John in Rev. Don't mix up you old with your new my friends, but you only use what you have REASON! 241Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ,A' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15"So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,'B spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Try this on what did Jesus say to question. This the Prophet of Daniel not John in Rev. Don't mix up you old with your new my friends, but you only use what you have REASON! 241Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ,A' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15"So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,'B spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved did u even read what MC Just posted? btw, is all that scripture you just cited supposed to prove something? instead of just dumping scripture, please articulate your reason for providing it and what u are trying to prove w/ each verse. this is getting old.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 did u even read what MC Just posted? btw, is all that scripture you just cited supposed to prove something? instead of just dumping scripture, please articulate your reason for providing it and what u are trying to prove w/ each verse. this is getting old.... I am sorry I forgot you don't understand the scripture youself, you need someone to tell you what it mean. The point of it was that his claim that the whore was destroyed, ie Jerusalem. Yes but it didn't have anything to do with Revelation's Babylon. Furthermore, I look for information that used Babylon as a code word or any other name that Jerusalem may have been called and couldn't find Babylon. Would you like to take a look. JERUSALEM (foundation of Shalem [peace]). Called: Jebus (Jos 18:28; Jdg 19:10), Zion (1Ki 8:1; Zec 9:13), City of David (2Sa 5:7; Isa 22:9), Salem (Ge 14:18; Ps 76:2), Ariel (Isa 29:1), City of God (Ps 46:4), City of the Great King (Ps 48:2), City of Judah (2Ch 25:28), The Perfection of Beauty, The Joy of the Whole Earth (La 2:15), The Throne of the Lord (Jer 3:17), Holy Mountain (Da 9:16, 20), Holy City (Ne 11:1,18; Mt 4:5), City of our festivals (Isa 33:20), City of Truth (Zec 8:3), to be called "The LORD Our Righteousness" (Jer 33:16), Yahweh Shammah (Eze 48:35), See God, Names of: Yahweh Shammah. New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2,10-27). Situation and appearance of (Ps 122:3; 125:2; SS 6:4; Mic 4:8). Walls of (Jer 39:4). This is proof that it was not the code word. I have much, much more if you need it. I also look to see what Peter did in Rome but go to Jail and get killed by them and couldn't find a thing. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 oye vey...larry, aye aye aye of COURSE it will come to pass at the second coming of Jesus, but the "whore of Babylon" has absolutely no connection other than geographical to the past whore of babylon, and the future whore of babylon will not necessarily be in the same geographical location.. alll those symbolic things came to pass in the fall of Jerusalem, in the fall of the Roman Empire, each time. Christ came in glory each time and defeated them. But in the end time, He will come and judge the living and the dead and all those who are not part of His kingdom will be thrown to hell. He set up His kingdom in the Church, His kingdom has reigned for 1000 years after the fall of Jerusalem, it has reigned 1000 years after the fall of Rome, it could reign another 1000 years after the fall of the European Union for all i know, Revelation typifies the entire history of the Church, through the ages these symbols can be applied to different times, different lunatics bent on taking over the world, and then we can see the Catholic Church triumphing through it without a scratch. Revelation has been fulfilled many times throughout the centuries of Church history, and it's final fulfillment will end with a visible Glory and final damnation for those who reject Christ and His Church. The Prophecy of Revelation is rich, and is not confined to only one event, but to the whole 2000 yr. history of the Church. You I see don't have a clue. That is what gets old. You and you leader read the Bible the same way and that is the problem with what you teach and think. Beam him up Scotty! You also use people that were non-catholic as if they would be more creditabile. NOT!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 I am sorry I forgot you don't understand the scripture youself, you need someone to tell you what it mean. So Larry, has God appeared to you and said, "Larry, this is what this passage means and this is what that passage means"? Somehow I think that's very unlikely. You interpret the Bible based on your own feelings, opinions, and biases. We Catholics, however, interpret it based on the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles handed down for 2000 years. The point of it was that his claim that the whore was destroyed, ie Jerusalem. Yes but it didn't have anything to do with Revelation's Babylon. Furthermore, I look for information that used Babylon as a code word or any other name that Jerusalem may have been called and couldn't find Babylon. Would you like to take a look. JERUSALEM (foundation of Shalem [peace]). Called: Jebus (Jos 18:28; Jdg 19:10), Zion (1Ki 8:1; Zec 9:13), City of David (2Sa 5:7; Isa 22:9), Salem (Ge 14:18; Ps 76:2), Ariel (Isa 29:1), City of God (Ps 46:4), City of the Great King (Ps 48:2), City of Judah (2Ch 25:28), The Perfection of Beauty, The Joy of the Whole Earth (La 2:15), The Throne of the Lord (Jer 3:17), Holy Mountain (Da 9:16, 20), Holy City (Ne 11:1,18; Mt 4:5), City of our festivals (Isa 33:20), City of Truth (Zec 8:3), to be called "The LORD Our Righteousness" (Jer 33:16), Yahweh Shammah (Eze 48:35), See God, Names of: Yahweh Shammah. New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2,10-27). Situation and appearance of (Ps 122:3; 125:2; SS 6:4; Mic 4:8). Walls of (Jer 39:4). This is proof that it was not the code word. I have much, much more if you need it. I also look to see what Peter did in Rome but go to Jail and get killed by them and couldn't find a thing. You didn't find any because you didn't look carefully enough. "Another angel, a second, followed, saying, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion’” (Rev. 14:8). “The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath” (Rev. 16:19). “[A]nd on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations’” (Rev. 17:5). “And he called out with a mighty voice, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great’” (Rev. 18:2). “[T]hey will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, ‘Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come’” (Rev. 18:10). “So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence” (Rev. 18:21). These references can’t be to the one-time capital of the Babylonian empire. That Babylon had been reduced to an inconsequential village by the march of years, military defeat, and political subjugation; it was no longer a “great city.” It played no important part in the recent history of the ancient world. From the New Testament perspective, the only candidates for the “great city” mentioned in Revelation are Rome and Jerusalem. There's very good reason to believe that Babylon means Rome -- persecution. The authorities knew that Peter was a leader of the Church, and the Church, under Roman law, was considered organized atheism. (The worship of any gods other than the Roman was considered atheism.) Peter would do himself, not to mention those with him, no service by advertising his presence in the capital—after all, mail service from Rome was then even worse than it is today, and letters were routinely read by Roman officials. Peter was a wanted man, as were all Christian leaders. Why encourage a manhunt? We also know that the apostles sometimes referred to cities under symbolic names (cf. Rev. 11:8). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 You I see don't have a clue. That is what gets old. You and you leader read the Bible the same way and that is the problem with what you teach and think. Beam him up Scotty! You also use people that were non-catholic as if they would be more creditabile. NOT!!!!!! And what's wrong with us reading the Bible the same way as our leaders? Why is that a bad thing? In Protestantism, people read the Bible every which way but loose, the leaders and the followers alike. And it just results in confusion and breaking away from others. And as for not using people who are non-Catholic, we've all seen that they never do get Church teaching 100% correct. In fact, most of the time they're way off, as their writing is colored by bias. If you drove a Ford, and you needed to repair it, you wouldn't buy a book on repairing Hondas, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 So, defending the Whore of Babylon line is something for those that would never come here, never be fair, and a preserve of the hard core anti's, not for those that respect the Catholic Church, but strongly disagree with her. It seems that some do come here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 You I see don't have a clue. That is what gets old. You and you leader read the Bible the same way and that is the problem with what you teach and think. Beam him up Scotty! You also use people that were non-catholic as if they would be more creditabile. NOT!!!!!! So Larry you beaver dam us for being consistant for 2000 years. THANK YOU! THat is what we are supposed to do. :rolling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am sorry I forgot you don't understand the scripture youself, you need someone to tell you what it mean. The point of it was that his claim that the whore was destroyed, ie Jerusalem. Yes but it didn't have anything to do with Revelation's Babylon. Furthermore, I look for information that used Babylon as a code word or any other name that Jerusalem may have been called and couldn't find Babylon. Would you like to take a look. ..... (deleted, for the sake of brevity) This is proof that it was not the code word. I have much, much more if you need it. I also look to see what Peter did in Rome but go to Jail and get killed by them and couldn't find a thing. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved first off, i understand it just fine. i was asking for the reason why YOU posted it. thanks for judging my ability to understand scripture, though, that was very Christian of you. btw, the search you completed w/ ur interactive bible doesn't prove anything. why don't you search for Catholic Church, or even Church and see if the word Babylon comes up. i'm guessing it doesn't. well then, by ur same logic i guess the Church isn't Babylon. thanks in advance for proving my point for me. finally, regarding ur search for Peter in Rome, the Bible isn't a history book. it was never meant to be. but, guess what we do have? we have early christian testimony which shows that darn near every christian w/ the ability to write thought that Peter went to Rome, set up a church, and died there. btw, if u respond by saying that this is incredulous b/c its just "Catholics writing to Catholics" then all u do is prove another point i have been trying to make: the early Church is the Catholic Church. anyway, here's my proof (note the dates for when this was written): Ignatius of Antioch "Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]). Dionysius of Corinth "You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8). Irenaeus "Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]). "But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2). "The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3). Gaius "It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cataphrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’" (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, Church History 2:25:5). Clement of Alexandria "The circumstances which occasioned . . . [the writing] of Mark were these: When Peter preached the Word publicly at Rome and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed" (Sketches [A.D. 200], in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 6, 14:1). Tertullian "But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood; where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John [the Baptist, by being beheaded]" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 36 [A.D. 200]). "[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (ibid., 32:2). "Let us see what milk the Corinthians drained from Paul; against what standard the Galatians were measured for correction; what the Philippians, Thessalonians, and Ephesians read; what even the nearby Romans sound forth, to whom both Peter and Paul bequeathed the gospel and even sealed it with their blood" (Against Marcion 4, 5:1 [A.D. 210]). The Little Labyrinth "Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3). The Poem Against the Marcionites "In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter in mighty Rome commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down. After him, Cletus too accepted the flock of the fold. As his successor, Anacletus was elected by lot. Clement follows him, well-known to apostolic men. After him Evaristus ruled the flock without crime. Alexander, sixth in succession, commends the fold to Sixtus. After his illustrious times were completed, he passed it on to Telesphorus. He was excellent, a faithful martyr . . . " (Poem Against the Marcionites 276–284 [A.D. 267]). of course, more can be provided if necessary. also, note that much of this testimony comes from Eusebius, a historian by trade and a man who is considered quite reputable by theologians and christian historians of many creeds. ur rebuttal? were the early christians just delusional? find me one instance in early testimony in which anyone attempts to assert otherwise or correct these "delusional" christians in their belief about Peter. again, try to refute my specific points w/ backup info of your own, instead of just stating opinions. Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 larry, i anxiously await your reply. remember, please try to address each point i have made in my rebuttal to ur post, and please try to back up your opinions with proof. thank you, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 What is this code language you people talk about? If you try hard enough, you can find a code or pattern from anything. Yesterday was 01/01/04. if you add the digits together you get the number 6. if you write out the date with the number 6 for the month/day/year you get 6/6/6. OH MY! On a completely seperate issue, what do you do for a living MC? Matt read the whole post. What is ment by Cose is Metaphor or Analogy something along those lines... Your point would be good if people where saying that through the use of a code they could determine some gnostic secret meaning, which one can do with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I'm confused... Does this mean, that pagan Rome was not Babylon then? My recent NAB Bible I purchased (with numoress Imputur's and other "seals of approval" on it), says that pagan Rome was Babylon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 The bible has many layers of meaning. Yes Pagan Rome was the whore. But the whore will also appear (possibly, most likel;y in a different form) in the future, at the Second Coming. Revelation is a prophetic book which actually predicts the events of 70 AD, but also the events to come at the end of the age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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