Is FUS Traditional/Charismatic or what?

[Oik]

Seven77,

The Charismatic movement holds that thier spirituality has been present since biblical times, that in fact it is part of the Church. This is inconsistant.

The Church is Hierarchical and Charismatic:

What the Church, both East and West means by Charismatic is not a specific type of Spirituality or set of devotion(s). What is meant by Charismatic is the traditional understanding of the Charisms and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit.

Now, to be fair, there is little wrong with [i]associating[/i] the 'gifts' of the Charismatic renewal with the Fruits and Gifts of the Spirit. [i]Equating[/i] the two is inaccurate.

Look at it this way. The Church is Hierarchical meaning God set it up, through the Apostles to have a Sarced Order of Bishops and Priests (and shortly after, Deacons). This is part of the Apostolic Faith. The Charismatic movement is not. Neither is Ignatian, Dominican Spirituality, or Franciscan Spirituality (or Benedictine, etc. etc.).

Edited June 28, 2006 by Oik

[OLAM Dad]

My experience with FUS is limited to a single 3 day weekend attending a bible seminar. That experience definitely ruled out FUS as a school that I would strongly encourage my kids to attend.

Why? The biggest turn off for me was that during Mass the guy leading the rock band (maybe folk would be more accurate) kept ejaculating into his microphone all throughout Mass. He would say things like 'Praise Jesus' and 'Thank you, Jesus'. It was very distracting and I thought the priest was going to throw the paten at him at one point.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1014123' date='Jun 28 2006, 07:33 PM']
My experience with FUS is limited to a single 3 day weekend attending a bible seminar. That experience definitely ruled out FUS as a school that I would strongly encourage my kids to attend.

Why? The biggest turn off for me was that during Mass the guy leading the rock band (maybe folk would be more accurate) kept ejaculating into his microphone all throughout Mass. He would say things like 'Praise Jesus' and 'Thank you, Jesus'. It was very distracting and I thought the priest was going to throw the paten at him at one point.
[/quote]
As odd as the Masses can get, that's pretty isolated. I've never seen anything like that happen. Although they do like to do "tongues prayer" during pauses in Mass parts.

Anyway, I recommend sending students here for the orthodox teaching in the classrooms. If you want a good liturgy, there are plenty of people who go to St. Peter's daily.

[quote name='crystalblujay' post='1013424' date='Jun 27 2006, 09:44 PM']
ok... so how is Christ the King Chapel scandalous then?
[/quote]
It doesn't fit at all with the traditions of Church architecture, for starters. Additionally, it was originally designed for different purposes.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1014133' date='Jun 28 2006, 07:00 PM']
As odd as the Masses can get, that's pretty isolated.
[/quote]
That's good to know. Seriously. I really like the Orthodoxy at FUS. If I had to choose between good theology and good liturgy I would choose good theology and go elsewhere, as you suggest, for the liturgy.

[XIX]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1014123' date='Jun 28 2006, 05:33 PM']
My experience with FUS is limited to a single 3 day weekend attending a bible seminar. That experience definitely ruled out FUS as a school that I would strongly encourage my kids to attend.

Why? The biggest turn off for me was that during Mass the guy leading the rock band (maybe folk would be more accurate) kept ejaculating into his microphone all throughout Mass. He would say things like 'Praise Jesus' and 'Thank you, Jesus'. It was very distracting and I thought the priest was going to throw the paten at him at one point.
[/quote]
At least the priest was annoyed.

[Franimus]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1014123' date='Jun 28 2006, 07:33 PM']
My experience with FUS is limited to a single 3 day weekend attending a bible seminar. That experience definitely ruled out FUS as a school that I would strongly encourage my kids to attend.

Why? The biggest turn off for me was that during Mass the guy leading the rock band (maybe folk would be more accurate) kept ejaculating into his microphone all throughout Mass. He would say things like 'Praise Jesus' and 'Thank you, Jesus'. It was very distracting and I thought the priest was going to throw the paten at him at one point.
[/quote]
yeah i don't like that either.. i just sit (or kneel or stand) there and grit my teeth... I'm a soundtech for Mass, and so far i've been lucky to not have a music group that does that.. I try to go to the noon Masses because, since they're cramped for time, they don't do that usually (it's usually during the Great Amen).
Personally, I don't even go to FUS for the academics. For me, FUS is like a spiritual party school. I'm not even majoring in any sort of theology, but it is still a reason I'm going there. I want some basic theological/philosophical courses/background, and know that at FUS I'm going to get the right stuff, and not from some pseudocatholic or noncatholic at another school. I'm going to FUS to give me a foundation on which I will be able to live the rest of my life for Christ, and not against Him. I mostly get this foundation from living on campus, having good friends, being in an amazing household, etc.


To get back to the primary topic, I'd say FUS is a mix of traditionalists and charismatics, but mostly charismatic. Keep in mind that you're going to notice charismatics more than tradionalists just by the nature of charismatics. Personally, I'm on the traditional side, as you'll rarely, if ever, see me raise my hands, and you'll pretty much never hear me praying charismatically (a verse comes to mind: "Do not babble as the pagans do" I know it's speaking about something slightly different, but imo it still applies to some forms of charismatic prayer. As I heard someone say, I think at a manhood or fatherhood talk or something, Jesus doesn't need you to tell him how great He is, or that you're praising Him. He sometimes wants you to just listen)
I hate to talk about mostly bad things, but there once was a guy who, in the middle of the homily, shouted "THAT'S NOT TRUE! .................sorry" when the priest was talking about women in Isreal..
On a good note, though, it is pretty easy to talk to anyone there about Catholic things...

[Seven77]

[quote name='Oik' post='1014101' date='Jun 28 2006, 04:45 PM']
Seven77,

The Charismatic movement holds that thier spirituality has been present since biblical times, that in fact it is part of the Church. This is inconsistant.

The Church is Hierarchical and Charismatic:

What the Church, both East and West means by Charismatic is not a specific type of Spirituality or set of devotion(s). What is meant by Charismatic is the traditional understanding of the Charisms and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit.

Now, to be fair, there is little wrong with [i]associating[/i] the 'gifts' of the Charismatic renewal with the Fruits and Gifts of the Spirit. [i]Equating[/i] the two is inaccurate.


[/quote]

Oik,

you are quite right--- is not a specific type of Spirituality rather it is 'understanding of the Charisms and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit'... thus, present since Acts.

[zealousrap]

I haven't read through this whole thing but here is my 2 cents.

I have a problem with people that come to FUS and take the charismatic movement for what it is not. People that invest only in the magic feelings. I know of story after story of people that come to FUS, built their faith on the glitter, and graduate...once they find that their parish doesn't give them that emotional warm feelings, they leave the church. And that's because they missed the point. I personally can appreciate the charismatic movement, though I haven't recieved the gifts of the Spirit. I am more of a person that balances charismatic prayer and silent contemplative prayer.

I Kings 19:11-12
Then the LORD said, "Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD; the LORD will be passing by." A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the LORD--but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake--but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake there was fire--but the LORD was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.

It is in the silence that God speaks to us...

"Changing places is not the answer.

Changing occupations is not the answer.
The answer is to change our hearts.

And how do we change?
By praying.

Prayer is joy
prayer is love
prayer is peace.
You cannot explain it
you must experience prayer.
It is not impossible.
God gives it for the asking.
"Ask and you shall receive."

The beginning of prayer is silence...God speaking
in the silence of the heart. And then we start talking to God
from the fullness of the heart. And he listens.
The beginning of prayer is scripture...we listen to
God speaking. And then we begin to speak to him again
from the fullness of our heart. And he listens.
That is really prayer. Both sides listening and both sides
speaking."
-Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta


also, at the same time, the first apostles were charismatic.

Acts 2:1-4
When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.
And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, 2 and it filled the entire house in which they were.
Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, 3 which parted and came to rest on each one of them.
And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, 4 as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.


I think there is nothing wrong with the charismatic movement if you take it the right way. There should be a balance....

[Seven77]

[quote name='zealousrap' post='1015200' date='Jun 30 2006, 11:35 AM']
I haven't read through this whole thing but here is my 2 cents.

I have a problem with people that come to FUS and take the charismatic movement for what it is not.
[...]

I think there is nothing wrong with the charismatic movement if you take it the right way. There should be a balance....
[/quote]

right Zealous. balance is key. let us not 'throw the baby out w/the bathwater'.

[dspen2005]

i'm more of a christendom kinda guy

[Oik]

[quote]you are quite right--- is not a specific type of Spirituality rather it is 'understanding of the Charisms and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit'... thus, present since Acts.[/quote]

Good for me then, being as how the Church fosters many different ways of 'understanding'. In the Eastern tradition, this understanding, which is ancient, biblical and in many ways jewish, is completely different than the more modern understanding the Charismatic movement has taken up. One of the reasons I am sp fond of Eastern spirituality and like the Carmelites so much.

[Seven77]

[quote name='Oik' post='1016189' date='Jul 2 2006, 09:53 AM']
Good for me then, being as how the Church fosters many different ways of 'understanding'. In the Eastern tradition, this understanding, which is ancient, biblical and in many ways jewish, is completely different than the more modern understanding the Charismatic movement has taken up. One of the reasons I am sp fond of Eastern spirituality and like the Carmelites so much.
[/quote]

That's funny... I'm esp. fond of Eastern spirituality too. When i was at the beginning of my 'reconversion' it was the ancient, Jewish, apostolic elements that drew me in esp. through icons. Only recently have i come to accept Charismatic dimension. In fact i've come to see it in the writings of Early Church Fathers, esp. St. Ephrem. The holy zeal and fervor of the Holy Spirit is evident. "Why not become all FIRE!" as a desert Father said to his disciple. It's there.

The Charismatic movement understood in this Catholic sense is the key to interpret it.. though perhaps many 'charismatics' are unaware of this or fail to convey it.

[Apotheoun]

There is nothing Eastern about the modern charismatic movement, and in fact quite the contrary, it is based upon an utterly foreign theology that is inimical to Byzantine spirituality. The modern charismatic movement is founded upon the holiness and pentecostal movements of 19th and 20th century Protestantism, and has nothing to do with the spirituality of the Hesychastic mystics of the East, which is always focused upon the reintegration of mind and heart in prayer through dispassion and ascesis, and which has no interest in sensationalistic displays of so-called "charismatic" gifts. The Hesychastic "Prayer of the Heart" is focused upon entering into communion with God by participating in His uncreated energies, and this should not be confused with the modern emotionalism of the charismatic movement in the Western Catholic Church, or in the Protestant ecclesial communities that gave birth to this movement in the first place.

Furthermore, I must emphasize the fact that it is not even possible to understand Eastern mystical experience without first understanding and accepting the Triadological distinctions made within the theological tradition of the Byzantine Church. Now this, of course, necessarily entails accepting the fundamental realities of essence ([i]ousia[/i]), person ([i]hypostasis[/i]), and energy ([i]energeia[/i]) in God, while also accepting the synergistic communion that is made possible by the incarnation of the eternal Logos, because it is only through the sacraments instituted by God incarnate -- which have the effect of extending His saving action throughout history until He returns at the end of the age -- that man can experience a true mystical encounter with the tri-hypostatic Godhead. Thus, the use of terms like "fire" and "light," and other terms of that kind, which may be common to the charismatic movement and the Byzantine tradition, reveals only superficial similarities between the two theological approaches. That being said, it is clear that the charismatic movement presently popular in the Latin Church is basically a modern Western movement, which is founded upon the anti-sacramental theology of some of the more radical groups that came out of the 16th century Protestant Reformation, and as such it has nothing in common with the Byzantine doctrinal and spiritual tradition.

Finally, I would simply reiterate what I said earlier in this thread, that is, that a Byzantine Christian should avoid the charismatic movement, because it does not represent the liturgical, spiritual, or doctrinal tradition of his [i]sui juris[/i] Church.