Is FUS Traditional/Charismatic or what?

[MichaelF]

Question for those at FUS:

I've heard that the Charismatic movement has "taken over" the spiritual life of FUS. I've also heard that it is not present in any major way.

In what way is this accurate, and what does everyone -mean- by "Charismatic"? It seems to be a catchall term for everything from LifeTeen to Glossolalia...

One of my old teammates is set to attend this Fall, and he does not care for the Charismatic style of worship (he's Ruthenian).

Thanks

[the 13th papist]

the charismatic movement places more emphasis on the holy spirit and the gifts of the holy spirit. it is characterized most broadly by praise and worship but is not even close to being limited to it.

the charismatic movement is strong, but then again so are the traditionalists. franciscan is a huge mix of all types of orthadoxcatholics and a few that arent.

youll be able to find a household/ mass/ group of people that share your specific worship style.

[phatcatholic]

personally, i don't think that any one way of expressing our faith has "taken over."

the daily 12:00 mass has a lifeteen vibe, but the other ones do not (so i hear, i've never been to mass during the other times). there are also "praise and worship" gatherings you can go to if u want. but, ALOT of FUS students also go to St. Peter's for mass, which is traditional, and not all of the clubs/organizations/households are oriented towards the charismatic renewal. the majority of the grad theology students, in particular, seem to prefer a more traditional form of worship.

so......yea, what "the 13th papist" said, you'll be able to find the type of worship you prefer and plentry of people who prefer it too.

[Tarcisius]

St. Peters is not traditional in the least. It is reverant, and is the best NO ive ever seen but thats about it. The Charismatic movement does not just place more emphasis on the Holy Spirit but mostly more on yourself and mankind. Charismaticism has not taken over, it is what the college was founded on. It is the Charismatic Mecca. Charismaticism has actually started to decline there since the begining, the kids have realized its kind of empty and its mostly the crazys and the old hippie administrators who push the movement. There are almost no Trads at FUS, maybe a few who attend the indult, but I dont think there are any left that go to the SSPX chapel.

FUS is so anti-tradition, that its students and administrators will even rip down excerpts posted from the Pope St. Pius X Catechism just because it doesnt flow well with the ecumenical love fest.

Tell your friend to get a room in groundfloor trinity, if he cant swing the projects.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='1008483' date='Jun 19 2006, 07:02 PM']
St. Peters is not traditional in the least. It is reverant, and is the best NO ive ever seen but thats about it. The Charismatic movement does not just place more emphasis on the Holy Spirit but mostly more on yourself and mankind. Charismaticism has not taken over, it is what the college was founded on. It is the Charismatic Mecca. Charismaticism has actually started to decline there since the begining, the kids have realized its kind of empty and its mostly the crazys and the old hippie administrators who push the movement. There are almost no Trads at FUS, maybe a few who attend the indult, but I dont think there are any left that go to the SSPX chapel.

FUS is so anti-tradition, that its students and administrators will even rip down excerpts posted from the Pope St. Pius X Catechism just because it doesnt flow well with the ecumenical love fest.

Tell your friend to get a room in groundfloor trinity, if he cant swing the projects.
[/quote]

1. St. Peter's is traditional. It's just not traditionalist or Tridentine. It has the second best Novus Ordo Mass I've attended (the first was the actual Latin one I attended over Christmas vacation, although the choir director told me that even that missed the mark of what the Council intended).

2. The school was not founded on the charismatic movement. The school was renewed on it. Franciscan University, originally called the College of Steubenville, was a very secular place, despite the friars who ran it. It was most certainly not charismatic from the start.

3. The charismatic movement is about being involved with the Triune God in Christ working through the Holy Spirit. It rightfully acknowledges that it is about the Church's communion with God and therefore seeks the gifts of the Holy Spirit to better that relationship. Any abuse thereof is not, properly speaking, "charismatic."

4. The very phrase "Charismatic Mecca" is just silly. "Charismatic Vatican" at least would make more sense.

5. The charismatic movement is in decline there, but it is still popular and does dominate the liturgy. I think the decline isn't really so much a decline as it is that others, recognizing the orthodoxy of Franciscan, are attending...people such as myself, who are not charismatics.

6. Careful who you call a "hippy administrator."

7. There is a large number of tradition-loving people at Franciscan. There simply aren't a load of schismatics (although I know of at least one who refuses to go to Sunday Mass because she doesn't believe it's valid). There are certainly some students who suffer from a great deal of pride, including one who tried to videotape Sunday Mass this Spring to make a "documentary" on the abuses. If you want to bash the school, though, you're going to have a hard time saying there isn't tradition there.

8. I'd like to know who ripped down the poster from the St. Pius X Catechism, since he is one of the most revered saints among the catechetical student body.

[Tarcisius]

"1. St. Peter's is traditional. It's just not traditionalist or Tridentine."

Altar girls, Communion in hand, passing of peace, parishoners wearing shorts, flip flops, t shirts, etc etc....

"2. The school was not founded on the charismatic movement. The school was renewed on it. Franciscan University, originally called the College of Steubenville, was a very secular place, despite the friars who ran it. It was most certainly not charismatic from the start."

Have you looked at pictures from the early years? it was a mini woodstock in which you would be outcast if you didnt raise your hands to the Holy Spirit.

"4. The very phrase "Charismatic Mecca" is just silly. "Charismatic Vatican" at least would make more sense."

well Stuebenville is rome of the US, but I think Mecca works well here....

"5. The charismatic movement is in decline there, but it is still popular and does dominate the liturgy. I think the decline isn't really so much a decline as it is that others, recognizing the orthodoxy of Franciscan, are attending...people such as myself, who are not charismatics."

"I think the decline isn't really so much a decline" lol, because FUS is world-renown for its strict adherence to canon law.

"6. Careful who you call a "hippy administrator.""

I think they would take it as a compliment..

"7. There is a large number of tradition-loving people at Franciscan."

I couldnt get any to even attend the indult with me. Most of the pre-thes i talked to had never even heard of the Tridentine Mass.

"There simply aren't a load of schismatics"

well those who attend SSPX arent in schism as even authorities in Rome have attested, there are actually quite a lot of heretics and schsmatics at FUS. There are quite a few prots, ags, gays, eastern orths, gidieons, even some semi-secret freemasons.

" There are certainly some students who suffer from a great deal of pride, including one who tried to videotape Sunday Mass this Spring to make a "documentary" on the abuses. "

For some reason I always wonder if those who call other people out for being pridefull really know the meaning of humbleness or humility. And also, we all know FUS Masses are filled with abusses, so someone trying to make it so Our Lord is not disgraced 3 times a day doesnt seem like such a bad thing.

"If you want to bash the school, though, you're going to have a hard time saying there isn't tradition there."

Well I spose when the Byzantine seminarians come every semester there is a little"

8. I'd like to know who ripped down the poster from the St. Pius X Catechism, since he is one of the most revered saints among the catechetical student body.

Ask around, im sure youll find someone, as there were about 50 posted one night, and they were all gone by 1pm the next day.

[MichaelF]

So, traditional = Tridentine Mass?

I thought I was traditional, in liking Mass without guitars. I'm a Novus Ordo boy (that being the Mass of the Latin Church).

I will point out, however, that the Society of St. Pius X is not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Ergo, voluntary attendance at a Mass celebrated by a SSPX cleric is illicit.

[quote]c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the church's law.[/quote]
-Pope John Paul II
-[i]Ecclesia Dei[/i]

Edited June 20, 2006 by MichaelF

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='1008966' date='Jun 20 2006, 08:33 AM']
"1. St. Peter's is traditional. It's just not traditionalist or Tridentine."

Altar girls, Communion in hand, passing of peace, parishoners wearing shorts, flip flops, t shirts, etc etc....
[/quote]

So you're saying that doing what the Vatican allows is somehow not traditional? As for the clothing people wear, you can hardly blame St. Peter's for that.


[quote]"2. The school was not founded on the charismatic movement. The school was renewed on it. Franciscan University, originally called the College of Steubenville, was a very secular place, despite the friars who ran it. It was most certainly not charismatic from the start."

Have you looked at pictures from the early years? it was a mini woodstock in which you would be outcast if you didnt raise your hands to the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

I've looked at the pictures from the charismatic renewal in the 70's...but since the school was founded in 1946, long before any of those pictures were taken, as a very secular place...


[quote]"5. The charismatic movement is in decline there, but it is still popular and does dominate the liturgy. I think the decline isn't really so much a decline as it is that others, recognizing the orthodoxy of Franciscan, are attending...people such as myself, who are not charismatics."

"I think the decline isn't really so much a decline" lol, because FUS is world-renown for its strict adherence to canon law.[/quote]

Ummm, you didn't mention canon law before. It's completely irrelevant. You were talking about FUS has the leader in the charismatic movement and mentioned that it was in decline as such. I mentioned that it wasn't so much in decline as it was that non-charismatics were joining the already present charismatics. Canon law has nothing to do with that.


[quote]"7. There is a large number of tradition-loving people at Franciscan."

I couldnt get any to even attend the indult with me. Most of the pre-thes i talked to had never even heard of the Tridentine Mass.[/quote]

The vast majority of the students here know what the Tridentine Mass is. I don't know who you talked to. There is a large number of students who go to the Tridentine Mass in Pittsburgh.

[quote] "There simply aren't a load of schismatics"

well those who attend SSPX arent in schism as even authorities in Rome have attested, there are actually quite a lot of heretics and schsmatics at FUS. There are quite a few prots, ags, gays, eastern orths, gidieons, even some semi-secret freemasons.[/quote]

As you well know, being Protestant doesn't make you a heretic. A formal act of heresy makes you a heretic. Additionally, being gay doesn't make you a heretic or schismatic, especially if you are trying to fight it. Since there's a group on campus to encourage chastity among homosexuals, and it's supported by the administration, you can't say that these things are somehow indicative of FUS. As for freemasons, I'd like to know how you know them, if they're "semi-secret." Finally, just because there are sinners at a college, even horrible ones, doesn't make the college a bad place.

[quote]"There are certainly some students who suffer from a great deal of pride, including one who tried to videotape Sunday Mass this Spring to make a "documentary" on the abuses. "

For some reason I always wonder if those who call other people out for being pridefull really know the meaning of humbleness or humility. And also, we all know FUS Masses are filled with abusses, so someone trying to make it so Our Lord is not disgraced 3 times a day doesnt seem like such a bad thing.[/quote]

I don't know much about abuses, but it is certainly a pride to come to Mass, where Christ is present, and videotape the liturgy with the arrogance of overlooking that presence in order to make a documentary focused on human shortcomings. I quote Dr. Hahn: "The only abuse I ever notice is that I'm allowed to receive."

[quote]"If you want to bash the school, though, you're going to have a hard time saying there isn't tradition there."

Well I spose when the Byzantine seminarians come every semester there is a little[/quote]

Are you a student here or were you ever? I can't imagine that you took any theology classes.

[quote]8. I'd like to know who ripped down the poster from the St. Pius X Catechism, since he is one of the most revered saints among the catechetical student body.

Ask around, im sure youll find someone, as there were about 50 posted one night, and they were all gone by 1pm the next day.[/quote]

My roommate informed me about this last night...putting up excerpts of the St. Pius X Catechism which were matters of discipline (and no longer considered binding) just to tick off the Gideons whom we could have worked toward converting...I don't blame them for tearing those down. That's not anti-tradition, it's anti-hate, not that there was any hate in St. Pius X, but that there was hate in the hearts of those who refuse to acknowledge their fellow men and who do not wish to follow the lead of the Magisterium in ecumenical dialogue to the extent of limiting themselves to the older statements of the faith which have been pastorally changed.

Please, learn to follow the Magisterium.

[the 13th papist]

FUS used to be rated in the top ten party schools by playboy.

have you ever been to a 900 am mass on sunday, Mike? viels, latin, seems kinda traditional to me, granted its not pre-Vatican 2.

and whats so bad about Vatican 2, for a catholic chat room there is alot of hateing going on. and what ever happened to "different strokes for different folks?" there are plenty of different ways to pray, worship, and say the mass that are all orthadox.

i dont know how to say this without sounding like a hypocrate, but can we please stop judging?

God bless,

Edited June 20, 2006 by the 13th papist

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1009067' date='Jun 20 2006, 11:26 AM']
FUS used to be rated in the top ten party schools by playboy.

have you ever been to a 900 am mass on sunday, Mike? viels, latin, seems kinda traditional to me, granted its not pre-Vatican 2.

and whats so bad about Vatican 2, for a catholic chat room there is alot of hateing going on. and what ever happened to "different strokes for different folks?" there are plenty of different ways to pray, worship, and say the mass that are all orthadox.

i dont know how to say this without sounding like a hypocrate, but can we please stop judging?

God bless,
[/quote]
I agree. I don't understand why there are so many attacks on FUS in the first place. I'm not a charismatic and I don't think I ever could be. I prefer Latin and chant wherever possible, I follow the Magisterium, etc., but I most certainly think that Franciscan is one of the most Catholic schools out there. You can tell by the fact that the students really care about the faith.

[jiyoung]

Tarcisius, something tells me that you've never actually been to FUS and are just spouting repeated nonsense. Franciscan is a far more Catholic school than many. But who are you to be the judge of that? Being rad-trad doesn't make you the ultimate Catholic, you know--it seems to me that rad-trads do the same thing that Protestants once did by trying to reform the Church by separating from it. We know how well that worked. You know what changed the Church? People from WITHIN the Church who, yes, talked to key people and did things, but in a spirit of charity, and who above all prayed for them. Now, if you want to keep bashing FUS, make your own thread in the debate table because you're completely hi-jacking mine.

AAAAANYWAY...where's UST? I wish Steubie was so close to my house, but I live in California, land of schools like Loyola Marymount...ew. But it's cool that you're thinking FUS

[Tarcisius]

[quote]Tarcisius, something tells me that you've never actually been to FUS and are just spouting repeated nonsense.[/quote]

I was a student there, very involved, friends with profs, and many people in the area.

[quote]So you're saying that doing what the Vatican allows is somehow not traditional? As for the clothing people wear, you can hardly blame St. Peter's for that.[/quote]

Well, come one now, I didnt say they were disobeying the Vatican, but its hardly traditional in the way most people use the word.

[quote]Ummm, you didn't mention canon law before. It's completely irrelevant.[/quote]

You said they were known for there Orthodoxy, I dont think most non-biased people would agree.

[quote]The vast majority of the students here know what the Tridentine Mass is. I don't know who you talked to. There is a large number of students who go to the Tridentine Mass in Pittsburgh.[/quote]

They do? I was talking to a bunch of pre-thes, and they didnt, granted they were underclassmen... good to hear that about Pitt, I heard from one of the profs who trys to get kids to go off campus for Mass that there were a handfull who used to go.

[quote]As for freemasons, I'd like to know how you know them, if they're "semi-secret." Finally, just because there are sinners at a college, even horrible ones, doesn't make the college a bad place. [/quote]

There SEMI-secret, ask a few of the hist profs about the masons(specifically O'Doyle).....and some of the kids in the projects with masonic symbols on there cars. I dont know what else to judge a college on other than the people that run and attend said college. Without them the school is nothing.

[quote]I quote Dr. Hahn: "The only abuse I ever notice is that I'm allowed to receive."[/quote]

O man, how many times have I heard that.....Hahn.....funny man.

[quote]Are you a student here or were you ever? I can't imagine that you took any theology classes.[/quote]

I studied under Roberts(most trad teacher there, and most brilliant) and Hildebrand for theol and philos.

[quote]My roommate informed me about this last night...putting up excerpts of the St. Pius X Catechism which were matters of discipline (and no longer considered binding) just to tick off the Gideons whom we could have worked toward converting...I don't blame them for tearing those down. That's not anti-tradition, it's anti-hate, not that there was any hate in St. Pius X, but that there was hate in the hearts of those who refuse to acknowledge their fellow men and who do not wish to follow the lead of the Magisterium in ecumenical dialogue to the extent of limiting themselves to the older statements of the faith which have been pastorally changed.
[/quote]

It was not just to tick the Gidieons off, It was to inform fellow Catholics about the actions and attitudes they should keep in mind when dealing with threats to there faith. Everyone was carrying those rediculous green books around like they were the Douay Rheims. The Gids come almost every semester, there was no working on them, they were working on us. The hate you speak about is a hatred for sin, a holy anger, well justified. Those who tore them down, did so with hatred of the hard truth. Pope St. Pius X meant what he wrote, it wasnt a little law of disipline, he knew that the false word of God was a danger to his flock. This doesnt change with time. You learn to be faithfull to one of the Greatest Popes of all time. Would it be wrong to post excerpts from leviticus if the whole campus forgot that homosexual relations were sinful and started taking gay porn from a traveling gay group.





"How does a "charismatic" Mass differ from a "non-Charismatic" Mass? How about Devotions and Prayer Meetings?

In essence, how does the practice stand out?"

Heres a photographic explanation of what you can expect to see from the Charismatics. very telling.

[mod]Catholic vs. Catholic link[/mod]

Edited June 22, 2006 by Lil Red

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Well, come one now, I didnt say they were disobeying the Vatican, but its hardly traditional in the way most people use the word.[/quote]

Well then, I'm sorry to say that you are accustomed to a bad definition of the word. Following the tradition of the Church is what traditional means, and the tradition of the Church with regard to the liturgy is simply this, to do what the Church says to do liturgically. If you don't like that, take it up with the Vatican, not with the parishes.

[quote]You said they were known for there Orthodoxy, I dont think most non-biased people would agree.[/quote]

I don't know anyone-at all-who thinks that Franciscan is heterodox. Are there some heterodox professors? Sure. The university itself, however, is very orthodox and makes maintaining that position a very diligent task.

[quote]They do? I was talking to a bunch of pre-thes, and they didnt, granted they were underclassmen... good to hear that about Pitt, I heard from one of the profs who trys to get kids to go off campus for Mass that there were a handfull who used to go.[/quote]

I wonder which pre-thes. Somehow, I think you're not being completely honest. The liturgical debate itself is so big on campus that I can't imagine someone who hasn't at least heard of the Tridentine Mass.

[quote]There SEMI-secret, ask a few of the hist profs about the masons(specifically O'Doyle).....and some of the kids in the projects with masonic symbols on there cars. I dont know what else to judge a college on other than the people that run and attend said college. Without them the school is nothing.[/quote]

Are those kids in the projects students or do they just live in the projects? Anyway, as I said, the sins of the students hardly justify an attack on the university.

[quote]I studied under Roberts(most trad teacher there, and most brilliant) and Hildebrand for theol and philos.[/quote]

Funny, I believe it was your Dr. Roberts who disagreed with St. Thomas Aquinas on the matter of God's relation with creation. If I do recall correctly, so much for tradition.

[quote]It was not just to tick the Gidieons off, It was to inform fellow Catholics about the actions and attitudes they should keep in mind when dealing with threats to there faith. Everyone was carrying those rediculous green books around like they were the Douay Rheims. The Gids come almost every semester, there was no working on them, they were working on us. The hate you speak about is a hatred for sin, a holy anger, well justified. Those who tore them down, did so with hatred of the hard truth. Pope St. Pius X meant what he wrote, it wasnt a little law of disipline, he knew that the false word of God was a danger to his flock. This doesnt change with time. You learn to be faithfull to one of the Greatest Popes of all time. Would it be wrong to post excerpts from leviticus if the whole campus forgot that homosexual relations were sinful and started taking gay porn from a traveling gay group.[/quote]

I had one, but certainly didn't carry it around like a Douay Rheims. In fact, my whole Latin class, after getting them, left them in the classroom because no one wanted them. Later, I found a pile of them stored in a janitor's closet because nobody was holding on to them.

Pope St. Pius X, the holy man that he was, recognized the great threat of non-Catholic Scriptures and was very much against their use in teaching the faith or their being read by the faithful. However, I hardly think that he would have condemned the reading of them by theology and catechetics majors. Even he would have advocated the policy of knowing the opposition. Further, while the texts may still be a threat to Catholic faith, the way we handle that threat is most certainly a discipline.

Anyway, I am faithful to one of the greatest popes of all time, but pope or no pope, saint or no saint, the Magisterium can change the discipline he set out. The disciplines stated by one pope can be changed by another. Substituting a past pope's disciplinary teachings for the current Magisterium is an error.

Further, the way the students work on the Gideons is the way we should. We must first find common ground. Not everyone is simply trying to raise heck with them by showing off how pathetic their translation is and how puny and insignificant their religion is. You don't make converts that way. You treat them with the respect they deserve as human persons.

As for the comment on homosexuality, it's a non sequitur argument. As I've stated, the text from the pope was disciplinary and subject to change. The law of God and the Book of Leviticus are not. The situations are entirely different. I'll give you a better similarity: what if we were all eating the meat of strangled animals and someone took out the disciplinary rules from the Book of Acts at the Council of Jerusalem and posted copies everywhere. That would be like what you are saying. The fact of the matter is that the Church no longer follows that particular way of going about things. If you so revere St. James and St. Paul as to get stuck in the past and ignore the fact that Christ's Church is alive with His Blood, then so be it. I can't help you then. I know one thing, though, St. Pius X, all the way up there in heaven, agrees completely with the Second Vatican Council.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Raphael

[Tarcisius]

I guess i dont wholly understand your calling the teachings mentioned in the Catechism a discipline and the significance of it.

To ignorant me, it would seem Pope St. Pius X was saying that there was inherent evil in the false word of God and that it was a danger to faithfull. I dont see how over time it could eventually become ok to take that evil, read that evil. It would seem to be at least an occasion of sin. Using the text for scholarly purposes is one thing. But that is not what the posters targeted and not what 99.9% of students were doing with
them. Many people were using them for spiritual reading. Also, taking there false book in a way is an approval of it, since we know it is not Catholic, you see where im going, anyway...Are there any post vat II documents on the same level as that Catechism which clearly state how one should deal with such matters now, or is everyone just guessing that since were all lovey dovey ecumenical that things have changed.

"Further, the way the students work on the Gideons is the way we should. We must first find common ground. Not everyone is simply trying to raise heck with them by showing off how pathetic their translation is and how puny and insignificant their religion is. You don't make converts that way. You treat them with the respect they deserve as human persons."

I thought i rememberd quite a few stories from the Saints in which they lambasted nonbelievers with everything they had, demolished there false religion, embarrassed them, untill they had no choice but to accept the truth. Do you really think FUS has ever made even one Gidioen flinch in his beliefs?

"St. Pius X, all the way up there in heaven, agrees completely with the Second Vatican Council"

Does he now? even the beloved profs at FUS have a few bones to pick with VATII.

"I wonder which pre-thes. Somehow, I think you're not being completely honest. The liturgical debate itself is so big on campus that I can't imagine someone who hasn't at least heard of the Tridentine Mass"

calling me a liar with no base, well whatever, They were second year pre-thes though, lived on ground floor trinity and everything, they are both in Austria now, I dont think it would be right to give there names. They had no clue there was anything more trad then a latin NO, in fact they didnt even no the term NO, It was the only form of Mass they had ever heard of.


"Funny, I believe it was your Dr. Roberts who disagreed with St. Thomas Aquinas on the matter of God's relation with creation. If I do recall correctly, so much for tradition"

Well not exatly my Roberts, he is the smartest man there, and he does atted St. Marys, but hes off on a few things. Though St. Thomas was off on a few things to.... Everyone knows Roberts likes to contradict Thomas, I think he does it just for kicks.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='1009345' date='Jun 20 2006, 08:02 PM']
I guess i dont wholly understand your calling the teachings mentioned in the Catechism a discipline and the significance of it.

To ignorant me, it would seem Pope St. Pius X was saying that there was inherent evil in the false word of God and that it was a danger to faithfull. I dont see how over time it could eventually become ok to take that evil, read that evil.
[/quote]

As I said above, the texts are not to be read in place of Catholic texts, but if one is reading them in order to see the errors in them, or in order to understand the Protestant mindset, then it hardly falls under the intention of Pope St. Pius X. I don't deny that the Protestant Scriptures fall gravely short of what God meant for them to be, and that that privation is a grave evil, but certainly Pope St. Pius X would agree that we must encounter and learn the materials of those we wish to convert if we want to be able succeed.

[quote]Using the text for scholarly purposes is one thing. But that is not what the posters targeted and not what 99.9% of students were doing with them. Many people were using them for spiritual reading.[/quote]

Really now? I didn't see a single person reading them...at all...the entire year...I wonder how it is that you manage to keep your eyes on 99.9% of the students and see what I cannot.


[quote]Also, taking there false book in a way is an approval of it, since we know it is not Catholic, you see where im going, anyway...[/quote]

Taking a false book is not an approval. In fact, you could even make the case that by accepting them, they were keeping them out of the hands of others.

I have a copy of the Book of Mormon...you know what I'd do with it? I'd probably use it to refute Mormonism, if I ever read it. At least I have a copy for when the time comes.

[quote]Are there any post vat II documents on the same level as that Catechism which clearly state how one should deal with such matters now, or is everyone just guessing that since were all lovey dovey ecumenical that things have changed.[/quote]

First, I'd like to know what the precise "level" of that catechism is. Second, I'd recommend Divino Afflante Spiritu and Dei Verbum.

[quote]I thought i rememberd quite a few stories from the Saints in which they lambasted nonbelievers with everything they had, demolished there false religion, embarrassed them, untill they had no choice but to accept the truth. Do you really think FUS has ever made even one Gidioen flinch in his beliefs?[/quote]

Yes, quite a few saints did that. Different methods for different times. I'm not saying that we should be nice and cuddly, but even Christ Himself used different methods with different audiences.

[quote]Does he now? even the beloved profs at FUS have a few bones to pick with VATII.[/quote]

Jesus Christ guides the Church and her councils. If a saint doesn't agree with Jesus Christ, I wouldn't be calling him a saint.

[quote]calling me a liar with no base, well whatever, They were second year pre-thes though, lived on ground floor trinity and everything, they are both in Austria now, I dont think it would be right to give there names. They had no clue there was anything more trad then a latin NO, in fact they didnt even no the term NO, It was the only form of Mass they had ever heard of.[/quote]

I'm not calling you a liar. I think you maybe misunderstood things. Either way, since when is hearing of the Tridentine a mark of orthodoxy? Last time I checked, orthodoxy was defined as following the teachings of the Church and of "right-worship"...now, since they follow the Church's teachings and worship in a way approved by the Church, who are you to say they aren't orthodox?

Edited June 21, 2006 by Raphael