The Problem

[Bruce S]

From another HUGE post. [Can't you guys say anything in less than a hundred paragraphs?] I culled this out, and want to use it to highlight some things.

I firmly believe that the Catholic faith is the most intellectually liberating thing in the world. I've never encountered anything comes close. The whole world seems to me to be a pathetic squalor of narrow ideologies and tribalisms next to it.

Now, seriously here, and I know I haven't been recently, that is exactly the problem with this board and the lockstep Catholic Church mentality.

Having been IN the Catholic Church and IN Presbyterianism and IN Methodism and IN Messianic Judaism and now IN Pentecostalism. And having studied other flavors too, I know the history, love history actually, it is this sort of BLINDNESS that gives you people that make statements like this one.

Catholicms in NOT intellectually "liberating" it is total stifling of thought. I might comment that I read other threads, in the other forums, and monitor other boards too, ones that I don't regularly post in. A commonality that I observe, is that whenever a good Catholic has an ORIGINAL thought, the IMMEDIATE reaction from the other Catholics is to run, go looksee what the OFFICIAL postion is on that idea, come back, and start correcting the original thinker to stomp out any divergence from the pre-written, officially approved, standard position.

The poor Catholic is stomped to death, IMMEDIATELY by the others on the board. Essential, as I see it, Catholics are NOT ALLOWED to "think" outside the "box" and if they dare try it, they are creamed.

Now, remember, I've lived in many different worlds here.

And participated in many online sites.

The people that really do the best job with thinking, is the Jews, remember, the very name Isra'el [spelling is intentional here] means "He Who Struggles/Fights with God]. They LOVE IT when the bible, or tradition, or scripture is inconsistant [and it really is...shhh...in many places] they think that God WANTS people to struggle to understand things, and it is those very questions that leads one deeper into study and a quest to come closer. Torah studies are NOT like Bible studies, they are almost like mudwrestling matches.

Now Presbyterians are intellectuals, they like the Catholics, have founded more colleges than others, and they have intensely educated leaders [over the top with liberalism with the PCUSA, and pretty good with PCA men] they do history pretty well, and they have a structured worship service, and darned good Bible studies.

Pentecostals are really into the Bible, love the "Gifts" not generally the best scholars, but have rock solid postions on most social issues, and actually are most like the Catholics in the people that are attracted to it, odd that, it is least like the Catholic faith, and most like it in the people I see there. I'm working on reconcilling that one.

However....

I'm rambling. To summarize, Catholic bigotry, yes, bigotry is where you get in all this hot water with others. You have an old faith, rich traditions, many good things to offer the world. HOWEVER, you have issues that because of the insular world most Catholics live in, and that burning need to "stay INSIDE" the box, at all times, and in all ways, you are unaware of the learning, insight, and ...

Dare I say it, CORRECTIONS to doctrines, that others have come to institute and practice.

Just as we can learn from you, you really "can" learn from others.

If you would just take the blinders off, and stick your toe in other ponds from time to time.

[Bruce S]

But Protestantism did not and could not discover anything not already part of the Faith as it was preserved by the Catholic Church. How could it? The Faith had already been given to the saints 1500 years before by Christ (Jude 3). Therefore, what Protestants did, at their very best (and they were often at their very best), was mine the gold of truth latent (and sometimes shabbily neglected) in the Catholic depositum fidei.

True statement, accepted.

BUT, and this is the key here, REJECTION of the baggage the Catholic Church faith added and still is adding to the fundamental truth that is Christianity, is critical here, it is in unbundling the faith from the excesses that the Catholic Church has imposed, is where Protestantism shines.

[ironmonk]

pentacostal church is less than 100 years old... how can it be the faith started by Christ?

Corrections to doctrines? If there need to be corrections, then there is no God, because Christ promised that the Church would be guided in all Truth, and never would be overcome.

If you like history... then study it, starting in the first century.

As I have said before, you can read all the first Christian writings for free at http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/ they are the exact same writings that any smart protestant believes to be the first Christian writings...

The same ones as: http://www.logos.com/products/details/518 that cost $249.95

A note from that page: "The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."

I think it kind of ironic how the protestant version must come with added matter written at a later date, seeing that many prots accuse Catholics of adding things.

Instead of arguing this verse means this or that.... why not clarify what you've been taught about Catholicism.

No one here can convert you, if you were to convert it would be because the Holy Spirit moved you to. I know that you don't think it would, that's fine... but instead of arguing, let's just talk about what the Catholic Church teaches, because it appears that you do have some misconceptions. There are many misconceptions out there.

My goal is that you get a better understanding of the Catholic Chuch... that is the real reason why I have the challenge up... I have it titled the way I do to sort of 'prod' people into getting what the Church really teaches and why.

Pick any point about a Catholic Church teaching that you feel doesn't make sense. Then let's cover that point. Not argue on it. Simply what the Church teaches and why.... Some points may overlap into others, but for the most, it should be easy to stick to everything on a point by point basis.

Your Servant In Christ,

ironmonk

[Bruce S]

The same ones as: http://www.logos.com/products/details/518 that cost $249.95

A note from that page: "The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."

Standard answer.

Monk, THINK. Post ONE post where YOU are the debater, YOUR thoughts, YOUR opinions.

I don't CARE what the "official policy is" on every thought that pops into our minds.

Let's DEBATE what happened with Pentecostalism

Fascinating. Do you know anything about it?

[jasJis]

Standard answer.

Monk, THINK. Post ONE post where YOU are the debater, YOUR thoughts, YOUR opinions.

I don't CARE what the "official policy is" on every thought that pops into our minds.

Let's DEBATE what happened with Pentecostalism

Fascinating. Do you know anything about it?

I thought you came here to debate Catholicism.

Fascinating. Do you know anything of the truth about it? Are you willing to admit any of the truth about it?

[Bruce S]

pentacostal church is less than 100 years old... how can it be the faith started by Christ?

Shows your utter bias, and ignorance frankly.

Pentecostals DO NOT CLAIM to be "The Original Chruch" duh. That isn't important to them.

They DO claim to have moved back to the PRACTICE more like the original church IN SOME AREAS, they have a total emphasis on the NINE gifts of the Holy Spirit, to them, it is the connection to the Paraclete that Jesus himself promised and the events of Pentecost, and more specifically, the use of those gifts as the early Christians did.

It is a faith of faith, not of doctrine, basically. They are basically Sol*A* Scriptura and not Sol*O* Scriptura, they use history, and try hard to stay biblically based.

Edited January 2, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Fascinating. Do you know anything of the truth about it? Are you willing to admit any of the truth about it?

I know a tremendous amount about it, sorry, lived IN IT for 22 years, don't forget that.

I admit a tremendous amount, AND know where it is man made, it is in those areas, and the mystical add-ons, and the Papacy issues that this begins to have problems.

Do YOU know anything about others?

[ironmonk]

Standard answer.

Monk, THINK. Post ONE post where YOU are the debater, YOUR thoughts, YOUR opinions.

I don't CARE what the "official policy is" on every thought that pops into our minds.

Let's DEBATE what happened with Pentecostalism

Fascinating. Do you know anything about it?

This is a Catholic forum... many of us here don't want to debate and argue over what pentecostalism. Many of us here are so to explain our Faith to those seeking to understand it. If you came to 'fight', then you've got a lot to learn about Christ's teachings.

The Scriptures were written in the first century in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. The Apostles spoke Aramaic.

How can anyone know the full meaning of something that old, unless they listen to the group that has been handing it down for 2000 years.

2 Timoty 3:14

But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Acts 8:30-35 - And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. 33In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth? 34And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.

Also, not to forget that it is the Church that the Scirptures call the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3:15). We know from the Scriptures that it was the Councils of the Church (Acts 15, St. Matt 18:17) that settle matters of Faith... and that no Scripture is made by private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Bruce S]

This is a Catholic forum... many of us here don't want to debate and argue over what pentecostalism. Many of us here are so to explain our Faith to those seeking to understand it. If you came to 'fight', then you've got a learn about Christ's teachings.

We are NOT here to sit at your feet like puppy dogs and be spoonfed your dogma. Sorry.

THIS forum is for INTERDENOMINATIONAL ***DEBATE*** not for regurgitation of your prewritten pap. Sorry.

NOT everyone thinks you are right, don't forget that.

[ironmonk]

I know a tremendous amount about it, sorry, lived IN IT for 22 years, don't forget that.

I admit a tremendous amount, AND know where it is man made, it is in those areas, and the mystical add-ons, and the Papacy issues that this begins to have problems.

Do YOU know anything about others?

If you know so much about it, why have you been wrong about what Catholics believe.

Just because you were in it does not mean you know it.

If you believe you know it so well, then let's talk about what you think you know.

Point by point.... if you do show you know it, we will be corrected in saying that you have some misconceptions. If you don't know it, then you'll gain a better understanding of it.... you could start with a point by point on what you disagreed with that caused you to leave.

If our dialog does not bring us closer to Christ, then it pushes us away from Him... we should not dialog if it causes us to be pushed from Christ.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Bruce S]

The Scriptures were written in the first century in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. The Apostles spoke Aramaic.

Luke was Greek. The Gospels were in GREEK, NO Gospel was originally in Hebrew that I'm aware of, if there was, cite it, my understanding of this is that the language isn't important, the words are, so do you have a point with that statement?

If so, I missed it.

Protestants can read translations too, so that is just bias coming out.

[foundsheep]

Having been IN the Catholic Church

Bruce S

I personally am very anti-Catholic, was raised one

??????????

[Bruce S]

If you believe you know it so well, then let's talk about what you think you know.

Point by point.... if you do show you know it, we will be corrected in saying that you have some misconceptions. If you don't know it, then you'll gain a better understanding of it.... you could start with a point by point on what you disagreed with that caused you to leave.

OK. PROVE that Mary was ascended BODILY into heaven.

Let's start with that myth.

I'm all ears.

[Katholikos]

The problem is . . .

that you believe that there is no such thing as religious Truth, that Truth is variable. Truth is whatever you decide it is, based on your own individual interpretation of the scriptures or whatever you are using as a measure of truth from moment to moment. A True interpretation today, but perhaps not tomorrow. Truth for you changes every time you change denominations. Religious "truth" is changeable, flexible and fluid from your perspective.

But Christianity is a revealed religion. Christ came to earth to reveal the TRUTH. We don't have to guess what it is, or reinvent it, or rediscover it 21 centuries later. It simply IS. We can accept it or reject it.

The TRUTH about God and salvation is like the truth of the laws of the universe. Truth does not change, as the law of gravity does not change. There isn't a "failure to think for ourselves." Rather, we acknowledge that Truth exists and that Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, knows more about God's truth than we do, since He Himself was God. Religious Truth was revealed by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and by the Apostles to the Church, "once for all" (Jude 3). That is the TRUTH the Church teaches. Christ promised to be with His Church ALWAYS (Mt 28:20), and sent the Holy Spirit as an abiding presence to be with the leaders of the Church, to help them recall his teachings, to guide them to all truth ALWAYS (Jn 14:16 et al.).

We don't get to "think for ourselves" that 2 + 2 = 5. We can only choose "4" because that's the objective truth. The pendulum on a clock is free to move, to work, as long as it is anchored, and so are we. We submit to Christ, who was God, and what he taught through the Apostles to the Church. The mission of the Church is to teach Christ's truths for the salvation of the world.

Protestantism is built on quicksand. All of Protestantism

is Bible-based, subject to men who "think for themselves," meaning they translate and interpret its words however they wish. This has led to thousands of "truths."

But there's only one Truth.

Catholicism is rock solid TRUTH. It is the work of Christ, who was God.

JMJ Likos

[Circle_Master]

Katholikos..

The problem is . . .

that you believe that there is no such thing as religious Truth, that Truth is variable. Truth is whatever you decide it is, based on your own "sanctioned interpretation" of the scriptures or whatever you are using as a measure of truth from moment to moment. A True interpretation today, but perhaps not tomorrow. Truth for you changes every time culture changes. Religious "truth" is changeable, flexible and fluid from your perspective.

But Christianity is a revealed religion. Christ came to earth to reveal the TRUTH. We don't have to guess what it is, or reinvent it, or rediscover it 21 centuries later. It simply IS. We can accept it or reject it.

The TRUTH about God and salvation is like the truth of the laws of the universe. Truth does not change, as the law of gravity does not change. There isn't a "failure to think for ourselves." Rather, we acknowledge that Truth exists and that Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, knows more about God's truth than we do, since He Himself was God. Religious Truth was revealed by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and by the Apostles to the Church, "once for all" (Jude 3). Meaning there would be no development of myths, doctrine we have can all be found in the writings of the Apostles. That is the TRUTH the Church teaches. Christ promised to be with His Church ALWAYS (Mt 28:20), and sent the Holy Spirit as an abiding presence to be with the leaders of the Church, to help them recall his teachings, to guide them to all truth ALWAYS (Jn 14:16 et al.).

We don't get to "think for ourselves" that 2 + 2 = 5. We can only choose "4" because that's the objective truth. The pendulum on a clock is free to move, to work, as long as it is anchored, and so are we. We submit to Christ, who was God, and what he taught through the Apostles to the Church. The mission of the Church is to teach Christ's truths for the salvation of the world.

Catholicism is built on quicksand. All of Catholicism

is tradition-based, subject to men who "think for themselves," meaning they translate and interpret tradition however they wish. This has led to corruption and lies called a "truth."

But there's only one Truth.

Scripture is rock solid TRUTH. It is the work of Christ, who was God.

ABV Circle_Master