Socrates Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 The way the mindless liberal media use the words "conservative" and "liberal," when reporting on the Catholic Church, they make it sound as though these are simply two equally legitimate "political factions" in the Church. (Just as one may be a liberal or conservative American.) This is especially irksome when they talk about things such as "Pope Benedict's ultra-conservative views on abortion and homosexuality" as though a "moderate" Pope could simply come in and change the Church's timeless moral teachings, or when it is implied that such teachings merely reflect the Pope's particular political persuasions. I tend to prefer "orthodox" and "heterodox," or "faithful" and "unfaithful," though I myself have been known to gripe about "liberal Catholics." I think "liberalism" can be used as an accurate label for the dominant heterodox "progressive" "do-your-own-thing" philosophy in the Church, as opposed to "right-wing" or "rad-trad" dissent. While "Rad-trad" schism seems to be a growing problem in the Church, the vast majority of heterodox dissenters in the Church are of a "liberal" persuasion. The typical "liberal Catholic" disagrees with the Church on things like abortion, women's ordination, and a host of sexual moral issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 In terms of the media and evangelical christians, I am a 'liberal' in the following areas: Concern for the dignity of the worker Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life Against death penalty in US Pro-organized labor movements Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions etc... Conservative as I support teachings and policies of the CC. Just another reason why I do not like 'liberal' and 'conservative' when describing catholics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Contenders and pretenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 [size=1][color="330000"]I do not think that the difference between Liberal and Conservative are as strong as "Faithful and Unfaithful" etc. I dunno...Im not much of a political person. [/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 [quote name='thedude' post='1010960' date='Jun 23 2006, 11:13 AM'] Contenders and pretenders? [/quote] best so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 How about Champs and Chumps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1010258' date='Jun 22 2006, 12:39 AM'] I often constrast the orthodox with the heterodox. I've found that I can call someone heterodox to their face and they don't seem bothered, whereas calling them a heretic usually brings out some hostility. [/quote] Do they actually know the meaning of heterodox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 [quote name='MissScripture' post='1011185' date='Jun 23 2006, 09:15 PM'] Do they actually know the meaning of heterodox? [/quote] Sadly, the cases in which I've had to bring that distinction into a discussion has been with professor types; so yes, they knew what I was getting at. The saddest part is that they were comfortable with this. [quote name='thedude' post='1010960' date='Jun 23 2006, 11:13 AM'] Contenders and pretenders? [/quote] that rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 [quote name='jswranch' post='1010883' date='Jun 23 2006, 06:58 AM'] In terms of the media and evangelical christians, I am a 'liberal' in the following areas: Concern for the dignity of the worker Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life Against death penalty in US Pro-organized labor movements Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions etc... Conservative as I support teachings and policies of the CC. Just another reason why I do not like 'liberal' and 'conservative' when describing catholics [/quote] At the risk of hijacking this into another "liberal vs conservative" thread: "Concern for the dignity of the worker" - Conservatives are not against the dignity of the worker. This needs to be stated more specifically. "Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life" - This is another emotional appeal; empathy does not mean there should not be reasonable restrictions on immigration. "Against death penalty in US" - The death penalty is still arguably the most just punishment and powerful deterrent for certain serious crimes, and has been supported by the Church through most of her history - but this has already been argued to death elsewhere. "Pro-organized labor movements" Labor has a right to organize, but labor unions today have become largely an extortion racket, and are often detrimental to the common good, hampering the ecomony and leading to greater unemployment for non-union workers. "Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions" - This is the most troubling here, as you seem to identify yourself as "liberal" on this issue. The promotion of public flaunting of sodomy by the "gay-rights movement" does anything but promote dignity. The condoning of sin and perversion in our society is not "loving treatment," but is contrary to true Charity. Perhaps I am misreading you here, but the typical "liberal" position on this issue is not one which can be supported by the true Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted June 27, 2006 Author Share Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' post='1011666' date='Jun 24 2006, 03:55 PM'] At the risk of hijacking this into another "liberal vs conservative" thread: "Concern for the dignity of the worker" - Conservatives are not against the dignity of the worker. This needs to be stated more specifically. "Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life" - This is another emotional appeal; empathy does not mean there should not be reasonable restrictions on immigration. "Against death penalty in US" - The death penalty is still arguably the most just punishment and powerful deterrent for certain serious crimes, and has been supported by the Church through most of her history - but this has already been argued to death elsewhere. "Pro-organized labor movements" Labor has a right to organize, but labor unions today have become largely an extortion racket, and are often detrimental to the common good, hampering the ecomony and leading to greater unemployment for non-union workers. "Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions" - This is the most troubling here, as you seem to identify yourself as "liberal" on this issue. The promotion of public flaunting of sodomy by the "gay-rights movement" does anything but promote dignity. The condoning of sin and perversion in our society is not "loving treatment," but is contrary to true Charity. Perhaps I am misreading you here, but the typical "liberal" position on this issue is not one which can be supported by the true Catholic. [/quote] I suppose I am contrasting myself with some of our separated brothers (not Pham). [quote]CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/quote] This is my position on the subject. The idea that I would treat such people with "respect, compassion, and sensitivity,"(aka dignity and loving treatment) would label me a liberal in some circles. No, I do not support the pride parades. As for the death penalty, I recently attended a political rally where the candidate promised to push for the traditional family values against the liberals who want to stop the death penalty. BTW...Are the KKK and Neo-Nazis ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 They are ultra ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1010258' date='Jun 21 2006, 11:39 PM'] I often constrast the orthodox with the heterodox. I've found that I can call someone heterodox to their face and they don't seem bothered, whereas calling them a heretic usually brings out some hostility. [/quote] I heart you guys. and yea, I use the terms orthodox and heterodox as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 I call them Playaz and Hataz. I promise that's the last one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='jswranch' post='1010883' date='Jun 23 2006, 07:58 AM'] In terms of the media and evangelical christians, I am a 'liberal' in the following areas: Concern for the dignity of the worker Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life Against death penalty in US Pro-organized labor movements Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions etc... Conservative as I support teachings and policies of the CC. Just another reason why I do not like 'liberal' and 'conservative' when describing catholics [/quote] Hard for me to apply coservative or lib to myself as a Catholic. I am fully obedient to the magisterium and the Pope and I support the reforms(?) of Vatican II. But I also support the recent trend toward taking a new look at those same reforms to make sure we interpreted them correctly in the US. As for the points above, I get looney: Concern for the dignity of the worker - I agree, but expand it to the dignity of all peeps, not just the working class Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life - I empathize, but I do not support them coming here illegally. Against death penalty in US - I am kind of torn here as the CCC states that the main reason for opposition is to give the condemned all the time they need to repent for thier sins. In the US, the dp is not imosed in anything even remotely resembling anything speedy. 10-20 years is the norm. But...I would far prefer them to get life w/o parole. Pro-organized labor movements - I am opposed to these. IMHO opinion unions were necessary to combat the poor conditions in the 1920s and such. But today, they are an archaic dinosaur that harms the very workers they claim to advocate by leeching from the companies they work for. How many airlines were forced into bankruptcy party because of labor unions failing to make concessions for the good of the whole company? Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions - For the people, yes. For thier lifestyle, heck no! I condemn the gay lifestyle as the perversion from the depths of hell it is. I'm also fed up with the gay activism pervading the country and the world now. Ever seen a person intorduce themself saying someting like "Hi! I'm Bill and I'm a heterosexual?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1013180' date='Jun 27 2006, 11:53 AM'] Hard for me to apply coservative or lib to myself as a Catholic. I am fully obedient to the magisterium and the Pope and I support the reforms(?) of Vatican II. But I also support the recent trend toward taking a new look at those same reforms to make sure we interpreted them correctly in the US. As for the points above, I get looney: Concern for the dignity of the worker - I agree, but expand it to the dignity of all peeps, not just the working class Empathy for those who die in the desert coming from Mexico for a better life - I empathize, but I do not support them coming here illegally. Against death penalty in US - I am kind of torn here as the CCC states that the main reason for opposition is to give the condemned all the time they need to repent for thier sins. In the US, the dp is not imosed in anything even remotely resembling anything speedy. 10-20 years is the norm. But...I would far prefer them to get life w/o parole. Pro-organized labor movements - I am opposed to these. IMHO opinion unions were necessary to combat the poor conditions in the 1920s and such. But today, they are an archaic dinosaur that harms the very workers they claim to advocate by leeching from the companies they work for. How many airlines were forced into bankruptcy party because of labor unions failing to make concessions for the good of the whole company? Dignity and loving treatment of persons with homosexual attractions - For the people, yes. For thier lifestyle, heck no! I condemn the gay lifestyle as the perversion from the depths of hell it is. I'm also fed up with the gay activism pervading the country and the world now. Ever seen a person intorduce themself saying someting like "Hi! I'm Bill and I'm a heterosexual?" [/quote] Actually, Groo, you generally sound pretty conservative - I've enjoyed reading your posts. Welcome to Phatmass, my Evil Conservative brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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