1 Kings 18:20-39

[Old_Joe]

[quote]Ahab sent to all the children of Israel
and had the prophets assemble on Mount Carmel.

Elijah appealed to all the people and said,
“How long will you straddle the issue?
If the LORD is God, follow him; if Baal, follow him.”
The people, however, did not answer him.
So Elijah said to the people,
“I am the only surviving prophet of the LORD,
and there are four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal.
Give us two young bulls.
Let them choose one, cut it into pieces, and place it on the wood,
but start no fire.
I shall prepare the other and place it on the wood,
but shall start no fire.
You shall call on your gods, and I will call on the LORD.
The God who answers with fire is God.”
All the people answered, “Agreed!”

Elijah then said to the prophets of Baal,
“Choose one young bull and prepare it first,
for there are more of you.
Call upon your gods, but do not start the fire.”
Taking the young bull that was turned over to them, they prepared it
and called on Baal from morning to noon, saying,
“Answer us, Baal!”
But there was no sound, and no one answering.
And they hopped around the altar they had prepared.
When it was noon, Elijah taunted them:
“Call louder, for he is a god and may be meditating,
or may have retired, or may be on a journey.
Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
They called out louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears,
as was their custom, until blood gushed over them.
Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state
until the time for offering sacrifice.
But there was not a sound;
no one answered, and no one was listening.

Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.”
When the people had done so, he repaired the altar of the LORD
that had been destroyed.
He took twelve stones, for the number of tribes of the sons of Jacob,
to whom the LORD had said, “Your name shall be Israel.”
He built an altar in honor of the LORD with the stones,
and made a trench around the altar
large enough for two measures of grain.

When he had arranged the wood,
he cut up the young bull and laid it on the wood.
“Fill four jars with water,” he said,
“and pour it over the burnt offering and over the wood.”
“Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.
“Do it a third time,” he said,
and they did it a third time.
The water flowed around the altar,
and the trench was filled with the water.

At the time for offering sacrifice,
the prophet Elijah came forward and said,
“LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel,
let it be known this day that you are God in Israel
and that I am your servant
and have done all these things by your command.
Answer me, LORD!
Answer me, that this people may know that you, LORD, are God
and that you have brought them back to their senses.”
The LORD’s fire came down
and consumed the burnt offering, wood, stones, and dust,
and it lapped up the water in the trench.
Seeing this, all the people fell prostrate and said,
“The LORD is God! The LORD is God!”
[/quote]

So I was reflecting on this reading before mass last Wednesday and I noticed something. First he beckons the people to altar which is then rebuilt. When he goes to prepare the sacrifice, he has water poured over it three times till it overflowed the altar. Then he prays to God that the people of Israel will turn their focus away from a false and return to the God of Israel. After praying this, fire comes down from heaven and consumes the altar and everything surrounding most notably the water that was thrice poured over it. Upon seeing this the people confess that the Lord is God. This is in contrast to the failed sacrifice of the 450 prophets of Baal who even after hours of worshipping and calling upon Baal and even spilling their own blood, which still brought no answer.

I noticed a couple of things. First of all, both water and fire are manifestations of the Holy Spirit which are also seen the waters of creation and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Second, the water is poured over the sacrifice three times as in baptism and it overflows the altar into the trench surrounding it. Lastly, after the prayer, the sacrifice is consumed by heavenly fire. I found this to be similar to Confirmation in which the Holy Spirit comes upon us and burns within the deepest trenches of our souls.

[Old_Joe]

anybody have anything to add to this?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Old_Joe' post='1007622' date='Jun 18 2006, 12:43 AM']
So I was reflecting on this reading before mass last Wednesday and I noticed something. First he beckons the people to altar which is then rebuilt. When he goes to prepare the sacrifice, he has water poured over it three times till it overflowed the altar. Then he prays to God that the people of Israel will turn their focus away from a false and return to the God of Israel. After praying this, fire comes down from heaven and consumes the altar and everything surrounding most notably the water that was thrice poured over it. Upon seeing this the people confess that the Lord is God. This is in contrast to the failed sacrifice of the 450 prophets of Baal who even after hours of worshipping and calling upon Baal and even spilling their own blood, which still brought no answer.

I noticed a couple of things. First of all, both water and fire are manifestations of the Holy Spirit which are also seen the waters of creation and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Second, the water is poured over the sacrifice three times as in baptism and it overflows the altar into the trench surrounding it. Lastly, after the prayer, the sacrifice is consumed by heavenly fire. I found this to be similar to Confirmation in which the Holy Spirit comes upon us and burns within the deepest trenches of our souls.
[/quote]
this is an insightful interpretation personally, i don't read anything spiritual or allegorical into the water. to me, its a technique to show the awesome-ness of the Lord's power: the fact that everything was drenched w/ water makes it that much more amazing when it all goes up in flames (although i'll admit, the 3x application of water is an enticing reference to baptism). i'm interested to see what a few bible commentaries have to say. i'll report back after mass.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

ok, i found some good stuff about this passage. here are some highlights from the various commentaries i consulted:

[i]Haydock Douay Rheims[/i]:[list][b]Ver. 32.[/b] [i]Furrows[/i]. Heb. "of two (sathayim) measures of seed." These furrows Elias filled with water, to impede the natural activity of fire, and to shew the miracle in a more striking light; as also to convince all that there was no deceit. An author quoted, under the name of St. Chrysostom, says that the pagans had sometimes subterraneous passages, by which they kindled the wood on the alter, as if by miracle, ita ut multi decepti ignem illum coelestem esse existi ment.

[b]Ver. 34.[/b] [i]Time[/i]. So that the wood was less disposed to catch fire.
[/list][i]Jerome Bible Commentary[/i]:[list][b]38.[/b] [i]fire of the Lord[/i]: The reference is to lightning (cf Nm 11:13; Lv 9:24; Jgs 6:21; on the miracle of the fire, see H. H. Rowley, "Elijah on Mount Carmel," BJRylL 43 [1960] 210-219).
[/list][i]New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture[/i]:[list][b]22-24.[/b] The ending of the drought might have been attributed to chance; lightning was decisive, especially as Baal, Hadad, 'Lord of Heaven', was the great storm-god.

[b]27.[/b] According to R. de Vaux, ('Les prophetes de Baal sur le mont Carmel' in Bulletin du Musee de Beyrouth, 1943), Elijah mocked four aspects of Baal: (1) the philosopher-inventor ('he is meditating'); (2) the patron of Phoenician merchants ('he is busy'); (3) the patron of his sailors; (4) the winter sleeper, for whose awakening, a feast was held in Tyre and Carthage, Jos, ant 8, 5, 3. The last trait shows Baal as the vegetation-god.
[/list]interestingly enough, the Catechism is helpful here as well:[list][b][url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/696.htm"]696[/url][/b] Fire. While water signifies birth and the fruitfulness of life given in the Holy Spirit, fire symbolizes the transforming energy of the Holy Spirit's actions. The prayer of the prophet Elijah, who "arose like fire" and whose "word burned like a torch," brought down fire from heaven on the sacrifice on Mount Carmel.[size=1]37[/size] This event was a "figure" of the fire of the Holy Spirit, who transforms what he touches. John the Baptist, who goes "before [the Lord] in the spirit and power of Elijah," proclaims Christ as the one who "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."[size=1]38[/size] Jesus will say of the Spirit: "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!"[size=1]39[/size] In the form of tongues "as of fire," the Holy Spirit rests on the disciples on the morning of Pentecost and fills them with himself[size=1]40[/size] The spiritual tradition has retained this symbolism of fire as one of the most expressive images of the Holy Spirit's actions.[size=1]41[/size] "Do not quench the Spirit."[size=1]42[/size]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2582.htm"][b]2582[/b][/url] Elijah is the "father" of the prophets, "the generation of those who seek him, who seek the face of the God of Jacob."30 Elijah's name, "The Lord is my God," foretells the people's cry in response to his prayer on Mount Carmel.[size=1]31[/size] St. James refers to Elijah in order to encourage us to pray: "The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."[size=1]32[/size]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2583.htm"][b]2583[/b][/url] After Elijah had learned mercy during his retreat at the Wadi Cherith, he teaches the widow of Zarephath to believe in The Word of God and confirms her faith by his urgent prayer: God brings the widow's child back to life.[size=1]33 [/size]

The sacrifice on Mount Carmel is a decisive test for the faith of the People of God. In response to Elijah's plea, "Answer me, O LORD, answer me," the Lord's fire consumes the holocaust, at the time of the evening oblation. The Eastern liturgies repeat Elijah's plea in the Eucharistic epiclesis.

Finally, taking the desert road that leads to the place where the living and true God reveals himself to his people, Elijah, like Moses before him, hides "in a cleft of he rock" until the mysterious presence of God has passed by.[size=1]34[/size] But only on the mountain of the Transfiguration will Moses and Elijah behold the unveiled face of him whom they sought; "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God [shines] in the face of Christ," crucified and risen.[size=1]35[/size]
[/list]pretty interesting stuff : it make sense that the fire would be caused by lightning, since Elijah had previously said that there would be a drought and that rain would not come again until he said so. then, after the lightning, the rain came, as it usually does.

anyway, i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Josie07]

hey guys.. I really think that this is a very spiritual passage, When i read it.. it made me think of how the world is today.. And how there will be a leader some day like the great monarch.. that will lead us out of the dangerous areas that we are in now.. and to become apart of Gods way...

[Seven77]

well right off i see the fire--"the Lord's fire" as the Holy Spirit:

Elijah calls down fire from Heaven upon the altar..fire falls..a miracle. The priest calls down fire from Heaven upon the gifts on the altar at the Epiclesis----

"Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness.
Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy,
so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ."

The Lord is GOD!

[jswranch]

I will think of this story everytime I cross myself before entering a church. May I always remember how God changes me by consuming me with the fire of the holy spirit after being doused in holy water 3 times at my baptism.

[phatcatholic]

Amen