"Why men don't like to go to church"

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1417073' date='Nov 10 2007, 03:16 PM']But it [i]would[/i] attract women?

Most women don't want the warm fuzzy-wuzzies generated by lots of hugs and politically correct 'non-threatening' sermons. Devout women want to grow in their faith and be challenged by the Gospel as much as devout men want it. This brand of liturgy has nothing to do with the presence of fewer men in the church or the idea that the priests are catering to middle-aged ladies. This is a question of orthodoxy verus heterodoxy, and that question transcends gender.

If I have to sit through a sloppy and oversentimental liturgy in order to receive Jesus, I will find the strength and the grace to do it, for the sake of my faith in God. If a large number of people (men and women) don't have that strength, I will pray for them to find it. I am quite sure that there is an equally large number of women out there who don't attend church because it lacks appeal for them, and they need prayer as well.[/quote]
I'm not saying that all (or even most) women love sappy "warm-fuzzy" masses (note in my last thread I said this was a generalization, and there are women even more against such things than myself).

However, the truth is that more women than men are attracted to (or at least tolerate) sappy and sentimentalized religion. This may not be true across the board, but I think it is safe to say that sappy sentimentality appeals more to women than men in general (especially middle-aged/older women).
(Look at how sappy sentimental movies are marketed as "chick flicks." I know some women who absolutely despise "chick flicks," but it's hardly controversial to point at that such things overall appeal more to women. And I'm not saying this to denigrate women; everyone knows we males have our share of other stupid stuff we like!)
And there is in many cases the additional problem of active "feminist" ideology which L_D mentioned, which excacerbates the problem.

About a year ago, I met a lady in another part of the state, and went to Sunday mass with her in her parish. She asked me what I thought, and, without being rude, explained as best I could how while it was ok, I prefered the more "traditional" less warm-fuzzy aproach at my own parish. Needless to say, that was the end of that. She just loved the warm-fuzzy "feminized" liturgy.

Returning to the approach I advocated (more traditional liturgies, solid challenging sermons, etc.) would not drive away devout women, but would also attract more devout men. From what I've seen, orthodox and traditional parishes don't have the problem of being female-dominated, or lacking men, but tend to have a more even balance of the two sexes.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1417119' date='Nov 10 2007, 05:51 PM']The real bottom line as I see it is that if you are unable to actually discuss the subject matter of this thread and insist on turning it into attacks on other people's character, the only thing that will be accomplished is the closing of this thread (I'm surprised it has not been moved to the debate board by now).[/quote]
Very true. It appears he has not even paid attention to what I wrote in my prior post in this thread, but is just using this thread as an opportunity to attack strawmen, and continue his usual tired bashing of anyone who dare express a politically-incorrect thought on Phatmass.

Rather than address actual arguments, he prefers to sit around throwing out accusations of "sexism" (one of the gravest sins against PC, right up there with "homophobia" and not recycling!)

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1417147' date='Nov 10 2007, 07:36 PM']My point isn't to mudsling LD, its simply to call out what I think is sexist. You might have been trying to be flippant in your post about no "heterosexual men" being involved with the liturgy. Soc can come back and say "replace feminized with emasculated". That's all well and good but it misses the point.

And while you may not be a misogynist, your statements were misogynistic.
Again let's take a look at your own examples
I'm not just pulling stuff out of thin air LD. I'm not on a rant for the sake of ranting. And I'm not saying this to be condescending. But people honestly do not realize when they are making sexist statements.

These are

So yes, you and others come across like the problems with the liturgy are due to the influence of women.[/quote]
Hey! Keep your paws off my posts! Seriously dude, you seem way too concerned about whether or not my use of language is x, y, z. The interpretation that you've given to both of those posts has nothing to do with the essential ideas I was trying to convey. I won't even bother going into the details because I think the vast majority of readers will realize that. Plus I don't think that is really the problem in this discussion.

The real problem here, in my opinion, is that you've hijacked this thread because you apparently see it as your role to police other people's use of language according to your particular preoccupations and sensibilities. Being a public message board there will be different people with different ideas of what constitutes sexist language, offensive expressions, et cetera. Some people may even be offended by your preoccupation with this particular thing. I know I have been offended by your obstinate quest to demonstrate that Socrates and I are sexist (or at least throwing around sexist ideas). Your arguments regarding my statements have been quite a stretch and if they are accepted then my posts become robbed of their intended meaning. The hermeneutic for understanding my posts is perfectly evident from a holistic reading of my posts and is essentially a sociological criticism which is not feminism specific.

[cmotherofpirl]

hot stuff, when you start labelling your opponent instead of disproving his argument, you have conceded the whole battle.

Soc and LD I understand exactly where you are coming from.
In many churches, you can attend a Mass where the priest is the only male in attendance, surrounded by female altar servers, female readers, female choir director, and a host of female eucharistic ministers. You sing a bunch of sappy songs, here a sermon on how we all wonderfully love one another, all hold hands and hug at the Our Father, and you can't pray after Mass cause you can't hear yourself think over all the chatter and gossip and giggles while the ladies clear out. While the above is somewhat of an exaggeration [spelling?], it is sadly true more often than not. If Jesus wasn't present at Communoin there would be no reason to attend.


However I could go downstreet to the evangelical church and see men happily appear in droves with their bibles in hand to hear a thunderous 1 hour sermon on being warriors for Christ.
Their church has 3 services that are packing with motheres and fathers and kids, with a great many ex catholics in the pews.

Think about it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1417310' date='Nov 11 2007, 01:04 AM']hot stuff, when you start labelling your opponent instead of disproving his argument, you have conceded the whole battle.

Soc and LD I understand exactly where you are coming from.
In many churches, you can attend a Mass where the priest is the only male in attendance, surrounded by female altar servers, female readers, female choir director, and a host of female eucharistic ministers. You sing a bunch of sappy songs, here a sermon on how we all wonderfully love one another, all hold hands and hug at the Our Father, and you can't pray after Mass cause you can't hear yourself think over all the chatter and gossip and giggles while the ladies clear out. While the above is somewhat of an exaggeration [spelling?], it is sadly true more often than not. If Jesus wasn't present at Communoin there would be no reason to attend.
However I could go downstreet to the evangelical church and see men happily appear in droves with their bibles in hand to hear a thunderous 1 hour sermon on being warriors for Christ.
Their church has 3 services that are packing with motheres and fathers and kids, with a great many ex catholics in the pews.

Think about it.[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

hot stuff,

Given that flippant speech has been a historical fault of mine I decided to look at my past posts taking into consideration the concerns you have been putting forth (which seems only fair). Although I still must insist that you have largely misunderstood my posts (at the very least my intentions) I have come to see that my first post was inappropriate and could quite easily be offensive or misunderstood in a scandalous way. I have gone ahead and edited that post and have raised my warning level since this seems only fair. I can assure you that I had no intention of being offensive and the views I was attempting to articulate are not derogatory in the least.

Peace.