"Why men don't like to go to church"

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1007192' date='Jun 17 2006, 02:14 AM']i completely agree, actually being a teen and and on the verge of manhood. read WILD AT HEART by John Elderidge. A man's heart is completely different than a woman's and it definately seems to me also that the mass in many parishes is not geared tward my heart. Everything is so nice and packaged inside a little box and handed over with a smile. what about the passion (no pun intended)? what about the martyrs? softly singing sissy songs in not exactly a soul moving experience.

i could really go on about how i dont identify with middle aged women because my heart is so far from theirs but ill spare you. i do however urge you, especially if you are a young man, to read WILD AT HEART
curtins, im gunna have to respectfully disagree with you...

i have to agree. i am not a teenage male who cares at all what society says and i dont subscribe to who mtv and society tell me what a man is but i have a heart that longs to be free, one that wants to love fully and dynamically, but i feel confined at church. i went to mass this morning where i was surrounded by older people, mostly women. ever song we sang was soft slow and unmoving. we even sang canticle of the sun by st Francis- it did nothing.

i think pastors and congregations could really learn a few things from steubenville masses, gregorian chants, lifeteen- music with some feeling and passion, something that attempts to be in the same universe as the sacrifice of the mass.

Peace,[/quote]
It's a good book. It's changed me when I read it. But it's not the -be-all-end-all of manhood. Men need to take the reigns of their energetic feelings and give time to God. What is needed is the focus on the passion. Now that is manly. Seriously. Also, the music does need reform in the sense that some places lack the music that speaks of laud and thanksgiving to God, and His heroism, etc.

[quote name='Nathan' post='1007274' date='Jun 17 2006, 12:43 PM']There is definitely a great femininity to Catholicism, its devotions and spiritualities. There is a solemnity, gentleness, and sensitivity to the Catholic faith that could be characterized as "female" in spirit. I think this is one of the things that attracted me to the faith. For all of my red-blooded, aggressive maleness, I have a real feminine side. I've always tended to get along a little better with women, especially older women, than men.

Maybe men who do not possess a feminine side feel uncomfortable with many aspects of Catholicism; I don't know. Our culture has long told men to not be sensitive, to bottle up their feelings.[/quote]
Well, I dunno if you and papist are talking about the same place. Some are better than others for men. Also depends on the man. I know some really energetic guys who've read wild at heart and love it. They climb stuff, lead the adventures in our youth ministry (second to our awesome priest, though , etc. But when it comes to Jesus, BANG! They're still and silent in prayer. It's amazing. We need that sort of witness.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1007192' date='Jun 17 2006, 01:14 AM']i think pastors and congregations could really learn a few things from steubenville masses, gregorian chants, lifeteen- music with some feeling and passion, something that attempts to be in the same universe as the sacrifice of the mass.[/quote]
lol. hehe, haha.. I know what you mean. [mod]Dumb - L_D[/mod]

[XIX]

Not that I know what I am talking about, but aren't most masses today Haugen-Hass masses? Isn't the Breaking Bread series from them? And isn't most church music straight from those same books?

[Daniel9]

[quote name='scardella' post='1007148' date='Jun 16 2006, 08:14 PM']Answer in short: If Catholics as a community get out of the wishy-washy business and into the kick-butt holy business, we'll attract everyone like bees to honey.[/quote]
Exactly! I work for a protestant denomination (I'm the "token" Catholic...ha!) and their churches are closing left and right because they are trying to appeal to [i]everyone[/i] and in the process appeal to no one.

[johnnydigit]

[quote]My background is in marketing and advertising[/quote]

the Mass doesn't need to sell anything. in many protestant churches, they will easily change if it will attract more followers, especially youth. the Mass doesn't need to sell, doesn't need to change anything.


[quote name='Socrates' post='1007416' date='Jun 17 2006, 04:16 PM']I've read other things which have argued the points I suspect this article makes. It's talking about the sissified, feminized culture found in many contemporary churches and parishes (both Catholic and protestant), not about the mission intended by Christ's Church.

The "feminization of the Church" has been commented on by many Catholic and Christian writers.
In many cases, the Faith has been watered down into something into something weak, passive, and "non-threatening," emphasizing the meekness, mildness, and submissiveness, at the expense of the more challenging or "masculine" elements of Christian spirituality (the "Church Militant")
This is a genuine problem, which has led increasingly to a Church dominated by women and effeminate men.[/quote]

Jesus was passive, weak, "non-threatening", meek, mild, submissive. there is more strength and masculinity in those than in today's standard.


[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' post='1415916' date='Nov 7 2007, 07:27 PM']You sing some wishy washy hymns, listen to a preacher tell you that you're not bad but you could be better, and hold hands and hug each other. It's absolutely directed toward middle aged women.[/quote]

this wishy-washy, lubby-dubby sentiment is one of the things that God asks of our hearts. no, i'm not saying to sing kum-bah-yah and hold hands, but God wants you to fall in love with Him in this way. the same way we fall puppy-dog in love with a girl, God wants the same, only more, profoundly more, and it is possible for anyone.

unfortunately many people simply aren't familiar and can't comprehend this notion. they are usually those who have a disdain for the "charismatic" movement and anything that resembles their actions, including the typical evangelical or pentecostal protestants. i think this is one of those things that one can never understand until they actually live it.

if you don't believe me, look to the writings of the greatest mystics we have, St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross. they talk of a mystical love, a mystical union with God that transcends anything you can ever imagine. also related would be St. Francis of Assisi, considered the closest to Jesus in heaven right now. plainly said, this ewy, sissy, lubby-dubby, feminine kind of love is what they all have in common.


=======================


i think i'm blessed with having experience at both ends of the spectrum, and go to daily Mass as well as take part in many daytime activities, church groups, and communities. most of them are, surprise, middle aged women. there was a time when i would be having the sentiment you guys are having, and sometimes i still do (especially when i first arrive), but the love of God, the Mass, and God's people soon overshadows any worry that masculinity may seed in my thoughts.

plainly said, i don't think it's God that needs to change to attract men of our day, it's the hearts of men that need to change.

[Justin86]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1416090' date='Nov 8 2007, 08:11 PM']the Mass doesn't need to sell anything. in many protestant churches, they will easily change if it will attract more followers, especially youth. the Mass doesn't need to sell, doesn't need to change anything.
Jesus was passive, weak, "non-threatening", meek, mild, submissive. there is more strength and masculinity in those than in today's standard.
this wishy-washy, lubby-dubby sentiment is one of the things that God asks of our hearts. no, i'm not saying to sing kum-bah-yah and hold hands, but God wants you to fall in love with Him in this way. the same way we fall puppy-dog in love with a girl, God wants the same, only more, profoundly more, and it is possible for anyone.

unfortunately many people simply aren't familiar and can't comprehend this notion. they are usually those who have a disdain for the "charismatic" movement and anything that resembles their actions, including the typical evangelical or pentecostal protestants. i think this is one of those things that one can never understand until they actually live it.

if you don't believe me, look to the writings of the greatest mystics we have, St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross. they talk of a mystical love, a mystical union with God that transcends anything you can ever imagine. also related would be St. Francis of Assisi, considered the closest to Jesus in heaven right now. plainly said, this ewy, sissy, lubby-dubby, feminine kind of love is what they all have in common.
=======================
i think i'm blessed with having experience at both ends of the spectrum, and go to daily Mass as well as take part in many daytime activities, church groups, and communities. most of them are, surprise, middle aged women. there was a time when i would be having the sentiment you guys are having, and sometimes i still do (especially when i first arrive), but the love of God, the Mass, and God's people soon overshadows any worry that masculinity may seed in my thoughts.

plainly said, i don't think it's God that needs to change to attract men of our day, it's the hearts of men that need to change.[/quote]
It's not the personal relationship with Jesus part that needs to change so much as it is this obsession with "ew, sissy, lubby-dubby", or "puppy-dog" kind of affection the Church seems to be using for evangelization ever since Vatican II as if its going to attract anyone except little old ladies.

"Puppy-dog" love is not real love. It is nothing more than an emotion. To sum it up in one word: [i]infatuation[/i] is all this is. Really, its lame and our love of God is called to be so much more real and legit then the love shared by Middle schoolers. Real, Christian love for God calls for [i]commitment[/i]. It calls for self-discipline, penance and self-sacrifice. These aren't things that are very warm and fuzzy and are severely under-talked about in todays Church because of it. That's what is meant by "femmization".

[MissScripture]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1416090' date='Nov 8 2007, 05:11 AM']Jesus was passive, weak, "non-threatening", meek, mild, submissive. there is more strength and masculinity in those than in today's standard.
this wishy-washy, lubby-dubby sentiment is one of the things that God asks of our hearts. no, i'm not saying to sing kum-bah-yah and hold hands, but God wants you to fall in love with Him in this way. the same way we fall puppy-dog in love with a girl, God wants the same, only more, profoundly more, and it is possible for anyone.[/quote]

Um, Jesus was not passive. Look at the whole thing with the money changers in the Temple. He just knew when to act and when to accept things. And how is it weak to accept the weight of all the sins in the world and go to your death out of love. That is NOT weakness! And non-threatening? If Jesus was non-threatening, He would not have been put to death! You don't put to death a guy preching puppy-dog love! He was submissive only to God, accepting what God required of him and not what others did. He was mild, yes, but only when the situation called for it.

And the love that God wants from us is NOT wishy-washy. I KNOW wishy-washy. I went to the Capital of Wishy-Washy for high school! What God wants is a committed love! A complete trust and faith in Him. That is hardly wishy-washy. It's standing firm, it's being strong, it's courageous. And this isn't meant in an offensive manner, but if all you feel for a girl is puppy dog love, you're not going to have a long relationship.

Maybe the words got in the way of what you were trying to say, but I really don't see any of this. I would not even be attracted to a Church that taught this, and I'm a girl!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

One thing that disturbs me is that people are automatically associating the dissipation of a strong and passionate Catholic culture with femininity. The hymns are 'sissy' - that means that they must be aimed at women, primarily women with names like Mavis and Maud and Ethel who like to knit tea cosies and put together pink glass rosaries over a nice cuppa tea. The male congregants are apathetic - that must be because unlike Meek Mavis and Passive Prudence, they have hearts on fire for a radical presentation of the Gospel and just can't stomach this wishy-washy woman's nonsense.

But being feminine is not the same as being a passive drip. One of Our Lady's more startling titles, taken from the Litany of Loreto, is 'Sword of Justice'. She's the epitome of feminity - but she isn't sissy. She should be the first person we look to when we want to see feminity in action. Not a Mass with tinkly piano hymns and an overabundance of lush pink roses in the pulpit. It's unfair to ascribe feminine traits to such a Mass or to say that it only looks like that because it's been designed specifically for female congregants.

The quality of liturgy and the way the Faith is expounded during Mass declines with the quality of an individual's theology. If your grasp of Catholicism is sound enough you should be able to attend any Mass, no matter how awful it is liturgically, purely for the sake of Jesus in the Eucharist. For the Bible readings, which will always give you [i]something[/i] intellectually. For the sake of the communion of saints. Last Sunday I was at a Mass featuring a CD player and supposedly 'atmospheric' music, which distracted me and irritated me in equal measure - especially when the score from 'Schindler's List' was played during Communion - but I was able to pray nonetheless, because I was there for God and nothing else. If men stop going to church because they think the style of worship as too 'feminine', I wouldn't immediately start decrying the way their particular church is doing things. I would be more concerned with the state of their theology and their private prayer lives. Zeal is not a suitably manly emotion that you should 'get' from Mass; it is a divine gift that you should attempt to nurture no matter what the quality of the service is like. It is a gift that should carry you through hundreds of 'sissy' Masses. If a man stops attending church on grounds that the service is too passive, his own behaviour presents us with a paradox: he is acting passively himself.

There are many possible reasons why women tend to be more devout churchgoers than men. It could be that they themselves are no fan of watered-down religion, but they continue to attend Mass anyway because they're prepared to be patient with its deficiencies. (I think it's reasonable to say that women are generally more patient than men, although this rule is obviously not universally applicable.) It could be that women don't mind as much if their emotions aren't satisfied during Mass, as their thoughts are with the community rather than what they can 'get' from the service as individuals. Or the reason could be something else entirely. While it's crucial that we try to make our liturgy worthy of God, labelling churches with dwindling male attendance as too 'feminine' and seeking to make them more 'masculine' is no way to go about doing that. The problem goes much deeper than gender.

Edited November 8, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[MissyP89]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1416123' date='Nov 8 2007, 10:38 AM']Um, Jesus was not passive. Look at the whole thing with the money changers in the Temple. He just knew when to act and when to accept things. And how is it weak to accept the weight of all the sins in the world and go to your death out of love. That is NOT weakness! And non-threatening? If Jesus was non-threatening, He would not have been put to death! You don't put to death a guy preching puppy-dog love! He was submissive only to God, accepting what God required of him and not what others did. He was mild, yes, but only when the situation called for it.[/quote]

Beautiful post, MS. He was angered and frustrated at times, yet steadfast in His teaching and wouldn't back down from the Father's instructions, even at the cost of His human life. What's sissy about [i]that[/i]? Truth is hard to swallow, and to stand with it in the midst of temptation is one of the most valiant things I can ask for in a man.

[quote]And the love that God wants from us is NOT wishy-washy. I KNOW wishy-washy. I went to the Capital of Wishy-Washy for high school! What God wants is a committed love! A complete trust and faith in Him. That is hardly wishy-washy. It's standing firm, it's being strong, it's courageous. And this isn't meant in an offensive manner, but if all you feel for a girl is puppy dog love, you're not going to have a long relationship.[/quote]

Love, any love, is a struggle. It's not always going to be happy and light and easy...you have toi fight through the hard times and ride it out. You took a commitment--in theological ways, at our Confirmation-- and it's your responsibility to stick with it. If a guy is dating a girl, is he going to dump her at the first sign of conflict? That doesn't sound like a real man, if you ask me. The same applies in faith--you can;t go running away every time something happens you don't like.

And whoever said Mary was a wonderful example of femininity (sp?) was so right. Her inner strength and courage was absolutely incredible, and far from sissy. It's why I admire her. Also, look at our female saints and martyrs, and the lives they lived. There is so much room for strength in the Church for both men and women, if we know where to seek it out.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1416183' date='Nov 9 2007, 03:29 AM']The quality of liturgy and the way the Faith is expounded during Mass declines with the quality of an individual's theology. If your grasp of Catholicism is sound enough you should be able to attend any Mass, no matter how awful it is liturgically, purely for the sake of Jesus in the Eucharist.[/quote]
Yes you should, but its hard to get that anyone actually believes in the Eucharist when the Novus Ordo Mass tends to lower the respect for it to zero.

We're not trying to excuse anyone's behavior, we're just pointing out that people, especially men, don't generally make that much effort into their religion aside from maybe Sunday Mass attendance. If this doesn't convey respect for the Eucharist alot of people aren't going to believe it.

[avemaria40]

Yes, I have a problem with the whole "wishy washy" thing being associated with femininity. I'm a woman and I know a lot of Catholic women on campus who are extremely devout and passionate. Passivity is "feminine"?????? Is it passive to stand outside of Planned Parenthood clinics in the freezing cold rainy weather when no one else is there and clinic workers are hostile to pray for the babies and their mothers? Is it passive to be the only one in your biology class defending life (when most of the other kids are also premed and should know better!!!) or the only one in your nondenominational Bible study defending priests and nuns, celibacy, etc.?

Besides, I also don't like the assumption that the guys going to today's Masses are "effeminate" or gay or w/e. I know a guy who is extremely sensitive, kind, affectionate, warm hearted, and very emotionally expressive about his faith. These traits are seen as womanly traits but he is one of the manliest guys I know. He defends the poor, protects women, and stands up for what he believes in. He's also in K of C and they actually helped him go to a Third World country for a semester to help others. He's very Catholic and holds a lot of traits that many would associate with women but is in no way "effeminate", "wishy washy", etc.

Passivity is wimpy but it sure as heck is not a "feminine" quality. Our Catholic girls on campus kick some serious demon butt and our Catholic guys are extremely manly and do the same! The problem is that people aren't passionate about their faith and THAT'S what needs to change, not whether it's "masculine" or "feminine".

[Spamity Calamity]

[quote name='scardella' post='1007148' date='Jun 16 2006, 11:14 PM']Answer in short: If Catholics as a community get out of the wishy-washy business and into the kick-butt holy business, we'll attract everyone like bees to honey.[/quote]

Oooooh! I like the sound of that! But then again I am a twenty something male too

[XIX]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' post='1415916' date='Nov 7 2007, 10:27 PM']And don't even get started on the church ministries. Thank goodness for KofC or else there really wouldn't be much for men to do.[/quote]
I agree...

Have you ever been to a prayer vigil outside of an abortion mill? It isn't an exclusively masculine thing, in fact you'd almost rather have women there than men, cause the women going in for abortions can relate better. But if you are looking for something that isn't so wishy washy, then that's definitely something to consider.

[quote]Yes, I have a problem with the whole "wishy washy" thing being associated with femininity. I'm a woman and I know a lot of Catholic women on campus who are extremely devout and passionate. Passivity is "feminine"?????? Is it passive to stand outside of Planned Parenthood clinics in the freezing cold rainy weather when no one else is there and clinic workers are hostile to pray for the babies and their mothers? Is it passive to be the only one in your biology class defending life (when most of the other kids are also premed and should know better!!!) or the only one in your nondenominational Bible study defending priests and nuns, celibacy, etc.?[/quote]

Edited November 8, 2007 by XIX

[Socrates]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1416090' date='Nov 8 2007, 06:11 AM']Jesus was passive, weak, "non-threatening", meek, mild, submissive. there is more strength and masculinity in those than in today's standard.[/quote]
It honestly makes me want to vomit every time I read such drivel.
Your "passive, weak, 'non-threatening', meek, mild, submissive" Jesus may be found in the sappy platitudes of "liberal Christianity" or those sickly effeminate-looking holy-card images so oddly beloved of some in "trad" circles, but that sure as heck isn't the Jesus found in the Gospels!

Christ was so weak that he could fast for forty days and forty nights in the desert.
He was so meek and mild that He could call evildoers and hypocrites "a brood of vipers, "whited sepulchers," and "sons of the devil" to their faces.
He was so passive and weak that He physically drove the moneychangers from the Temple with a whip.
He was so submissive that He spoke with authority over the demons and they obey Him.
Christ and His message were so non-threatening, that the authorities had Him arrested and sentenced to death!

At a purely human level, the thing that most strikes the reader about Christ in the Gospels is the strength and authority by which He speaks and acts. The people were astounded for he taught as one with authority, and not like their scribes. (Matt. 7:28-29).

Yes, Christ was gentle and and forgiving to the repentent sinner, but He was certainly no passive, non-threatening weakling.

And Christ's Passion and Death were not the result of weakness, but the ultimate act of heroic sacrifice.

"We have declawed the Lion of Judah and made him a housecat for pale priests and pious old ladies." ~ C.S. Lewis

Edited November 9, 2007 by Socrates

[theophane]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1416479' date='Nov 8 2007, 11:44 PM']"We have declawed the Lion of Judah and made him a housecat for pale priests and pious old ladies." ~ C.S. Lewis[/quote]


Nice quote, Soc!

Only to repeat it in another way: Jesus was indeed passive, but only to the Father's will. He was meek, only when his anger would have been unmerciful. He was active, continually [i]active[/i] against evil, and allowed his righteous anger to move him to speak out against evil, and counteract it.

Good thread, everyone.

Edited November 9, 2007 by theophane