"Do you think you're a good person?"

[Dave]

In Open Mic there's a thread regarding Kirk Cameron's show "The Way of the Master," so I looked at their site. Apparently, as part of the program, they go around and street-witness, and they usually start off by asking someone, "Do you think you're a good person?" And then they get into the Ten Commandments, going through them all and seeing which ones the person has broken and telling them that if they've sinned then they're not good people -- at least not good enough to get to heaven.

Well of course, there's the issue of venial sin, mortal sin, etc. But that's not what I'm concerned about right now. We're all sinners, of course; none of us would deny that. And we can't make it to heaven on our own; we need Jesus and His grace. But then there's the issue of whether or not we're "good people." Despite the original sin we were born into, God made us in His own image, so that can't possibly mean we're bad people; God doesn't make junk. I think the Protestant idea of "total depravity" comes into play here -- the idea that original sin makes us evil by nature and that we're capable of absolutely nothing good whatsoever.

So I guess my question is, what would you say if Kirk Cameron stopped you on the street and asked if you thought you were a good person?

[homeschoolmom]

I would say, "I'm created in God's image, but fall seriously short of His perfection. Thank God for His mercy."

[Sojourner]

When we were forced to do street evangelism when I was in high school () we had to ask that question.

I'd answer something similar to hsmom.

[chris]

Im a Catholic and I believe in total depravity. Romans 9:11 says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD. We are unworthy completely. We were made in his image but we fell from that image by the sin of Adam and Eve, our first parents. We fell so far into sin and darkness that it require the Blood of God only Son to bring us back (St. John 3:16) We were so evil that Cain murdered and GOD had to destory a city of homosexuality,murder,and lust, the city of Sodom and Gahmora. Even the men of Sodom demaned Lot hand over the Angels of God so that they could sleep with them.

We are nothing without the Grace of Christ. By his Holy Sacrifice we are renewed. But, we can still sin and deface the grace that God has given us. We do everyday in thought, word and in actions. Because, we are slaves to sin we will never be good until we are with GOD in Heaven. But, we thankfully have the forgivenes of GOD if we are sorrowful and sorry for our sins he will be just to forgive them and clean us of all unrighteousness.

Remeber the words of Christ:

The soul is willing but, the flesh is weak.

The soul is what makes you sorrowful when you sin because, it sees the disasters you have brought upon Christ and the Church community. That is why we go to confessional, and we recieve the absolution because we destroy everything when we sin. And to rebuild it we must repent and be sorrowful.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Convert4888

[Dave]

Total depravity is against Church teaching. Yes, we were depraved my orginal sin, but not totally so. If you're a Catholic, you accept everything the Church teaches, not some of it.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Dave

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

Thank you for bringing this up. I needed a reminder of GOD'S forgivness. :

[Era Might]

Good, yes. Holy, no.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Dave' post='1006952' date='Jun 16 2006, 02:59 PM']
In Open Mic there's a thread regarding Kirk Cameron's show "The Way of the Master," so I looked at their site. Apparently, as part of the program, they go around and street-witness, and they usually start off by asking someone, "Do you think you're a good person?" And then they get into the Ten Commandments, going through them all and seeing which ones the person has broken and telling them that if they've sinned then they're not good people -- at least not good enough to get to heaven.

Well of course, there's the issue of venial sin, mortal sin, etc. But that's not what I'm concerned about right now. We're all sinners, of course; none of us would deny that. And we can't make it to heaven on our own; we need Jesus and His grace. But then there's the issue of whether or not we're "good people." Despite the original sin we were born into, God made us in His own image, so that can't possibly mean we're bad people; God doesn't make junk. I think the Protestant idea of "total depravity" comes into play here -- the idea that original sin makes us evil by nature and that we're capable of absolutely nothing good whatsoever.

So I guess my question is, what would you say if Kirk Cameron stopped you on the street and asked if you thought you were a good person?
[/quote]



[b]St. Mark 10:18 [/b]
Jesus answered him, "[color="#CC0000"]Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone[/color]

[chris]

[quote]Yes, we were depraved my orginal sin, but not totally so[/quote]

Prove that, please. Adam and Eve sinned knowing the laws of GOD. Yet, being tempted they fell, into complete sin, the Bible doesnt say half-sin it says they fell from GOD. So much so that they had to wear the skin of dead animals and hide themselves from GOD who was [i]walking in the cool of the garden.[/i]

~Also on that note remember: Rom 9:11 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD.

Therefore, if we were inwardly good then why would Christ have to come and die for us? His death for an inwardly good person would be meaningless...However, it wasnt, he died for a people that was sunk soo deep in sin that it require the death and resurrection of our GOD to save us. I dont nessessarily hold to all precepts of total depravity as most protestants do. More than anything its a personal thing.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Convert4888

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i would say no.

but from what i understand, human nature is good, but is nothing that could ever merit salvation.

[Guest Rick777]

I would first say,"Kirk Cameron! I used to watch Growing Pains reruns all the time!"

Seriously though, I would quote Mark 10:18, good lookin out IronMonk.

[Dave]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1007158' date='Jun 16 2006, 10:51 PM']
Prove that, please. Adam and Eve sinned knowing the laws of GOD. Yet, being tempted they fell, into complete sin, the Bible doesnt say half-sin it says they fell from GOD. So much so that they had to wear the skin of dead animals and hide themselves from GOD who was [i]walking in the cool of the garden.[/i]

~Also on that note remember: Rom 9:11 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD.

Therefore, if we were inwardly good then why would Christ have to come and die for us? His death for an inwardly good person would be meaningless...However, it wasnt, he died for a people that was sunk soo deep in sin that it require the death and resurrection of our GOD to save us. I dont nessessarily hold to all precepts of total depravity as most protestants do. More than anything its a personal thing.
[/quote]


Then take a look at this article from This Rock magazine:

[quote]Are We Dunghills or Fertile Soil?

Why Understanding Concupiscence Is Important

By Mike Sullivan




This Rock
Volume 16, Number 7
September 2005

Late one night, when St. Augustine was a youth, he and his buddies, "a group of bad youngsters," stripped a pear tree of its fruit. They ate some of it but threw most of it to the pigs. The young Augustine didn’t steal the pears because he was hungry, or even because he desired them. He stole for the thrill of stealing. "Foul was the evil," he said, "and I loved it" (Confessions, 2).

I had a similar experience when I was a boy: I tried to steal a toy gun even though I had $20 in my pocket—which at the time I considered a small fortune. A friend and I wandered around the toy department with a forced casualness. Our awkward movements caught the attention of a security guard, who caught us with our pockets full of loot. We didn’t steal because we couldn’t afford the toys nor because we really wanted them. We did it for the thrill. We wanted to do something evil.

If someone had asked me if I wanted to commit a sin, I would have said no. But the truth was that I was overpowered by the desire to do something wrong. The word for that is concupiscence.

When desire to do something wrong springs up within us—often without our consent—we have an opportunity to either give in or build virtue by reigning in the flesh with the will. The desire to commit a sin is not sinful in itself. The sin comes when we give our consent to the evil desire. Just as Adam and Eve didn’t sin until they chose the forbidden fruit, so with us, our temptations themselves are not sinful. This point is often misunderstood and is a major difference between Catholic and Protestant theology.



We Are Not Dung


Most Protestants consider concupiscence itself to be sinful. Martin Luther was tormented for many years by his inability to overcome his fallen nature. He found peace only in the thought that man is depraved and simply can’t avoid sin. He and other Protestant Reformers were convinced that even our good works are nothing but sin.

This doctrine is known as total depravity and is accepted by many Protestants. In this view human nature is steeped in sin, and man’s only hope for salvation is confessing his faith and believing in the Lord as his Savior. With faith, the "cloak of righteousness" covers over the filth of whatever sins may have corrupted the soul. It is oft-repeated (albeit unverified) that Luther said Jesus covers up our sinfulness as snow covers a dunghill.

This is a far cry from the Catholic understanding of forgiveness, in which Jesus wipes the sin away completely through the sacrament of confession.

Similarly, Luther’s teachings—which greatly influenced the Reformers and modern-day Protestants—skewed the traditional understanding of the relationship between faith and works:


"It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe. . . . God does not need our actions" (Luther’s Works, Erlangen, vol. 29, p. 126).


"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but have stronger faith and rejoice in Christ, who is the victor of sin, death, and the world. Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice: Sin must be committed. . . . Sin cannot tear you away from him, even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders" (A Letter from Luther to Melancthon, n. 99, August 1, 1521).

Luther’s words are shocking for Catholics, as they undermine our understanding of free will. Gerard Wegemer, a professor of English at the University of Dallas and a prominent scholar of St. Thomas More, points out the dangers of such a position. Wegemer describes More’s reaction to the works and teachings of the Reformers:

They deny free will and thus ascribe responsibility for evil to God, not to his creatures. At the same time, the "one special thing" they use to spice everything else is a doctrine of liberty that teaches that "having faith, they need nothing else." . . . Luther’s denial of free will "plainly sets forth all the world to wretched living." After all, if the way we act is not within our control, what incentive is there to struggle against one’s passions and temptations? Furthermore, if our actions make no difference to God, why should they make any difference to us? More considers Luther’s denial of free will to be "the very worst and most mischievous heresy that was ever thought upon, and also the most mad" (Thomas More: A Portrait of Courage, Scepter, 123–25).
Invitation to Hypocrisy


Luther’s denial of free will remains a stumbling block for many good Christians who strive for virtue and holiness. This basic misunderstanding is made especially harmful when coupled with the common "once saved, always saved" mentality. The danger of this belief is that it can give rise to a disconnect between how one lives and what one believes: If it is impossible for me to overcome sin, and through my faith I’m assured salvation, then what keeps me from living a blatantly duplicitous life? Our modern culture is rife with examples of Christians—Catholics included—who go to church every Sunday and yet live in a way that is incompatible with Christ’s teachings.

We are called to serve God with all our faculties, both natural and supernatural. We must use our free will to choose what is good and holy and avoid what is evil. If we don’t have authentic free will, as many Protestants have claimed, how can we possibly live an upright Christian life? How can we freely follow Jesus’ command in the New Testament when he quoted Deuteronomy, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt. 22:37)?

If all we do is fraught with sin, as the Reformers taught, why bother to strive for virtue?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the other hand, says:

The way of perfection passes by way of the cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle. Spiritual progress entails the ascesis [self-denial] and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes (CCC 2015).
We have a fallen nature, but we are not snow-covered dung. Rather, as Paul said, we make up for what is lacking in the suffering of Christ (cf. Col. 1:24). So when we offer our struggles and good works to Christ, they multiply and unite with his and help to build up the body of Christ, the Church. The "dunghill" is in reality fertile soil. Our cooperation with God’s grace nurtures the soil to produce good fruit: "Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

By making use of the sacraments, prayerfully examining our consciences each day, and aggressively working to build virtue, we can be assured that when we call upon Christ, he will aid us in our daily struggle for holiness so that we can say with Paul at the end of this life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Sullivan is editor of Lay Witness magazine and director of communication for Catholics United for the Faith (www.cuf.org). He lives in Steubenville, Ohio, with his wife, Gwen, and their six children.
[/quote]

Edited June 17, 2006 by Dave

[chris]

I see, So we are moral, but still unworthy of the graces of Christ. Right?

[Dave]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1007400' date='Jun 17 2006, 05:34 PM']
I see, So we are moral, but still unworthy of the graces of Christ. Right?
[/quote]

None of us is worthy of Christ's graces. And how moral we are depends on if we truly strive, with God's help, to obey His commandments.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1007400' date='Jun 17 2006, 05:34 PM']
I see, So we are moral, but still unworthy of the graces of Christ. Right?
[/quote]

You might find this interesting...

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#1995"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t3art2.htm#1995[/url]

[b]II. Grace[/b]


[b]1996 [/b]
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46


[b]1997 [/b]
Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.


[b]1998 [/b]
This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47


[b]1999 [/b]
The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48


Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

[b]2000 [/b]
Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.


[b]2001 [/b]
The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50


Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

[b]2002 [/b]
God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:


If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

[b]2003 [/b]
Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54


[b]2004 [/b]
Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:


Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

[b]2005 [/b]
Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"57—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58



[b]IV. Christian Holiness[/b]


[b]2012 [/b]
"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64


[b]2013 [/b]
"All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66


In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

[b]2014 [/b]
Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments—"the holy mysteries"—and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.


[b]2015 [/b]
The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:


He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

[b]2016 [/b]
The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for [i]the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of[/i] God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71


[color="#990000"][b]IN BRIEF[/b][/color]

[b]2017 [/b]
The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.


[b]2018 [/b]
Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.


[b]2019 [/b]
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.


[b]2020 [/b]
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.


[b]2021 [/b]
Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.


[b]2022 [/b]
The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.


[b]2023 [/b]
Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.


[b]2024 [/b]
Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.


[b]2025 [/b]
We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.


[b]2026 [/b]
The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.


[b]2027 [/b]
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.


[b]2028 [/b]
"All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).


[b]2029 [/b]
"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).