Secular Music

[Dave]

Anyone care to comment on this excerpt from a sermon given by the previous pastor of my parish? He basically says secular music of any and every kind is evil.

[quote]Let’s focus on one of those gateways: the sense of hearing. Back in the 8th century, St. Bede the Venerable had this to say: “He who listens to evil tales, to licentious songs, to calumny or detraction, opens his ears and makes them the gate through which death enters the soul. That calumny, detraction, and evil tales existed in the 8th century probably surprises no one. But when it comes to licentious songs, we usually think of our own times rather than those of St. Bede some 1300 years ago. We think of Rock ‘n’ Roll and any number of its species: e.g., hard rock, punk, funk, grunge, gothic, heavy metal, rap, and new wave.

The problems: sometimes the lyrics are bad (e.g., Imagine); sometimes the music is disordered but the lyrics are good (e.g., Christian rock); other times, both the lyrics and music are disordered (rap: degrades women)

What do we mean by “bad” lyrics or disordered music? First, here’s what we don’t mean: By “bad” we don’t mean that the music is not attractive. On the contrary, rock musicians often do have a talent for melody: (Beatles, Led Zepelin (hypnotic), Billy Joel, Alabama, Yes, Rush, Doobie Brothers, Jethro Tull). Nor by “bad” do we mean cheap or superficial, vulgar or unrefined. To be sure, Rock ‘n’ Roll is cheap, superficial, often vulgar, and always unrefined—at least in comparison to Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Liszt, Bruckner, Debussy, Prokofiev, Gottchalk, Lecuona, Cervantes, and many others. Nevertheless, it’s no sin to be unrefined.

Rock ‘n’ Roll in general is bad because it encourages the young and impressionable to feel good about rebellion against authority (esp. against parents); it lures listeners into the trap of illicit sexual activity. Worse still, a lot of rock music exposes the listener to the world of drugs, witchcraft and the occult. Other songs promote nihilism, a sense of despair, even suicide. That being the case, I don’t think I am being unfair to Rock ‘n’ Roll when I say that it opposes the True, the Good, and the Beautiful; that it does little to edify the soul and draw it closer to God.

Now, a lot of young people always justify their musical tastes by saying something like this: “I don’t listen to the lyrics. I just like the beat.” (Imagine an early Christian going to the Roman Circus, saying, Don’t worry, St. Paul, I don’t clap when the Christians get ripped apart by the lions; I just love the excitement and frenzy of the crowd, the action.) The music is a vehicle for the words. Listen to the music long enough and you will begin to be formed not only by the music, but also by the ideas contained in the lyrics. (Nazi Germany).

But even if the lyrics were wholesome, one should also consider the influence of the music itself. As I said earlier, it’s possible to have a decent piece of music and lousy lyrics (e.g., Imagine). But it’s also possible to have objectively bad music, regardless whether the lyrics are good or bad. In other words, music is not simply a matter of taste. . .

How to determine the moral quality of music. Melody: idea, intellect. Harmony: pleasing order, makes chaos more revolting. Rhythm: energy, drive of music: it gives it motion, life. When used in the service of melody and harmony, you hardly notice it. But when rhythm becomes predominant in a piece, it stirs the passions. As to which passions, that may depend on the context: battlefield or nightclub.

Music is disordered if it encourages the passions to rule over the reason, to act chaotically. Now, Rock ‘n’ Roll, at least in its earliest stages, was recognized to be just that kind of music. At least Alan Freed, the man who coined the term R&R back in 1954 and brought this form of music to the mainstream market, made the connection. Or so it would seem, considering his choice of terms. What R&R meant originally [was to have sex -- it was a popular slang phrase in the black community].

If it is true that R&R promotes rebellion, sexual immorality, violence against women, suicide, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that R&R promotes the agenda of Satan. If R&R promotes Satan’s agenda, then it’s fair to say that R&R (by and large) is diabolical. I realize this may seem shocking to many of you, even outrageous. In reply, all I can say is, don’t expect the devil to appear to you in person. The devil is far more subtle than that. He’ll take us out through our senses, through our flesh. So take St. Paul’s words to heart: “Be not deceived: God is not mocked. For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, from the flesh also shall he reap corruption."[/quote]

While I agree that some types of music are indeed bad and should be avoided ("gangsta" rap, a lot of -- maybe even most -- heavy metal, etc.), now I'm hearing the argument that rock music in general promotes evil things and that it's rhythm, melody, harmony, etc. result in negativity. Who wants to help me out here?

[philothea]

[quote name='Dave' post='1006882' date='Jun 16 2006, 11:43 AM']
Anyone care to comment on this excerpt from a sermon given by the previous pastor of my parish? He basically says secular music of any and every kind is evil.
While I agree that some types of music are indeed bad and should be avoided ("gangsta" rap, a lot of -- maybe even most -- heavy metal, etc.), now I'm hearing the argument that rock music in general promotes evil things and that it's rhythm, melody, harmony, etc. result in negativity. Who wants to help me out here?
[/quote]
I think your previous pastor is commenting on a culture of which he is ignorant, which... well, it makes people look stupid when they do that, and leads to a lot of false alarms and bizarre conclusions.

[quote]But when it comes to licentious songs, we usually think of our own times rather than those of St. Bede some 1300 years ago.[/quote]
Only people who don't know anything about history... or human nature. As far as I know, every culture has music. I bet the rowdy hunter or warrior types in every culture all have naughty songs too. I bet all teens everywhere experiment with new, shocking innovations.

[quote]The problems: sometimes the lyrics are bad (e.g., Imagine); sometimes the music is disordered but the lyrics are good (e.g., Christian rock); other times, both the lyrics and music are disordered (rap: degrades women)[/quote]
And.... sometimes the music and the lyrics are both good? Maybe? Sometimes even neutral or harmless, I bet!

[quote] To be sure, Rock ‘n’ Roll is cheap, superficial, often vulgar, and always unrefined—at least in comparison to Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Liszt, Bruckner, Debussy, Prokofiev, Gottchalk, Lecuona, Cervantes, and many others. Nevertheless, it’s no sin to be unrefined.[/quote]
Ooh, nice bias here.

Actually, the creation of modern popular music takes vast amounts of work, technical skill, and engineering. "Unrefined" its not. It's so refined often the performers can't reproduce the released songs in a live performance anymore. "Informal" is the word he's looking for.

Superficial and vulgar are in the ears of the listener. Cheap? Well, if I can get the iTune...

[quote]Rock ‘n’ Roll in general is bad because it encourages the young and impressionable to feel good about rebellion against authority (esp. against parents); it lures listeners into the trap of illicit sexual activity. [/quote]
Was this sermon given 50 years ago?

Back then, he might have a point. Nowadays the parents are unlikely to be bastions of morality. (They listened to all [i]that[/i] carp decades ago.)

The last parental rebellion song I noticed dealt with "I don't want to be a superficial money-grubber like you..."

Definitely, some of the pop and hip-hop "club" type songs are all about sex... but that whole culture is messed up. The song lyrics are just a symptom, and anyone with any kind of decent upbringing is either going to be unaffected by, or dislike, that stuff.

[quote]Worse still, a lot of rock music exposes the listener to the world of drugs, witchcraft and the occult. Other songs promote nihilism, a sense of despair, even suicide. That being the case, I don’t think I am being unfair to Rock ‘n’ Roll when I say that it opposes the True, the Good, and the Beautiful; that it does little to edify the soul and draw it closer to God.[/quote]
"A lot of rock music"? Not really. Television is worse. That satanism stuff hasn't been trendy for decades. Christian stuff is hot now! It's rebellious!

[quote]But it’s also possible to have objectively bad music, regardless whether the lyrics are good or bad. In other words, music is not simply a matter of taste. . .[/quote]
On what is this based? It sounds like he's making it up.

[quote]How to determine the moral quality of music. Melody: idea, intellect. Harmony: pleasing order, makes chaos more revolting. Rhythm: energy, drive of music: it gives it motion, life. When used in the service of melody and harmony, you hardly notice it. But when rhythm becomes predominant in a piece, it stirs the passions. As to which passions, that may depend on the context: battlefield or nightclub.

Music is disordered if it encourages the passions to rule over the reason, to act chaotically.[/quote]
Hm. By this standard I shouldn't listen to a choir sing [i]Te Deum[/i] because it always makes me cry, no matter how much I try to reason myself out of that reaction.

I don't see needing to avoid an emotional response is a good reason. Sounds like Aristotle to me, not Jesus.

I agree with you, Dave -- [i]some[/i] modern music should be avoided. This is true for all modern art forms: some books, some movies, some TV, some games, some websites. The power of music to directly influence emotions is, indeed, something to consider (as is the hypnotic qualitiy of moving images, or the lasting influence of printed words).

I have broad musical tastes. I search out and buy lots of new music. I have no trouble finding more good, positive, inspiring songs than I can afford to buy...

[Jaime]

Its subjective. Organ music was considered lewd and vile prior to it being instituted in the Church.

[chris]

[quote]melody: (Beatles, Led Zepelin (hypnotic), Billy Joel, Alabama, Yes, Rush, Doobie Brothers, Jethro Tull). [/quote]

Sounds a little oppinionated to me...

[quote]Rock ‘n’ Roll in general is bad because it encourages the young and impressionable to feel good about rebellion against authority (esp. against parents[/quote]

The Beatles and all the old rock caused kids to rebel at that age to. The age of Extreme Pacifism and "Make Love not War". It was still rebellion and parentes delt with them as they do today.

Yes, music is a powerful tool. But, if you put your heart and soul into everything that these musicians say then you have no business listen to any kind of music. Not even Led Zepplin who once wrote a song about brainwashed kids. And in the music video these kids walk off ledges in to meatgrinders. Eh, I guess its just another brick in the wall.

I hate rap anyway.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Dave' post='1006882' date='Jun 16 2006, 10:43 AM']
Anyone care to comment on this excerpt from a sermon given by the previous pastor of my parish? He basically says secular music of any and every kind is evil.
While I agree that some types of music are indeed bad and should be avoided ("gangsta" rap, a lot of -- maybe even most -- heavy metal, etc.), now I'm hearing the argument that rock music in general promotes evil things and that it's rhythm, melody, harmony, etc. result in negativity. Who wants to help me out here?
[/quote]

All I listen to anymore is secular music. I stopped even listening to pretty much all of the protestant christian stuff. I think the strongest argument one has against it is with the lyrics, but even then I have found plenty to listen to that I don't think is objectionable. I'm not touching the melody part of it with a 10 foot pole. I don't even bother with those arguments.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Dave' post='1006882' date='Jun 16 2006, 10:43 AM']
Anyone care to comment on this excerpt from a sermon given by the previous pastor of my parish? He basically says secular music of any and every kind is evil.
While I agree that some types of music are indeed bad and should be avoided ("gangsta" rap, a lot of -- maybe even most -- heavy metal, etc.), now I'm hearing the argument that rock music in general promotes evil things and that it's rhythm, melody, harmony, etc. result in negativity. Who wants to help me out here?
[/quote]
Is this previous pastor a Fr. Basil Nortz by any chance?

This kind of argument has actually been around for some time, and was actually more common in the '70s and '80s.
While there are indeed problems with much of rock, I find these kinds of rants rather silly and ignorant.
All blanket condemnations are stupid (ok, that was a blanket condemnation.)

But actually, he's not arguing against [i]secular[/i] music; he's arguing against all rock music - he claims even Christian rock with good lyrics is intrincially evil.

While much of rock (and even more pop) is musically lacking, I've never really bought the whole "music which exalts the passions over reason is intrinsically evil" thing. Some of the more extreme of these people condemn pretty much all music from the 19th century (or even earlier) onward as "disordered," tracing the problem back to when Beethoven introduced "disordered passion" into classical music (or some other event).

This whole argument is taken from Plato's [i]Republic[/i] (it would be madness to disagree, O Socrates!), but if we are to take all the Republic on face value, it also proposed a strictly totalitarian system of government, and advocated co-ed naked gymnasiums (or at least that's what I recall from reading it in college).

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1006964' date='Jun 16 2006, 01:21 PM']
Sounds a little oppinionated to me...
The Beatles and all the old rock caused kids to rebel at that age to. The age of Extreme Pacifism and "Make Love not War". It was still rebellion and parentes delt with them as they do today.

Yes, music is a powerful tool. But, if you put your heart and soul into everything that these musicians say then you have no business listen to any kind of music. Not even Led Zepplin who once wrote a song about brainwashed kids. And in the music video these kids walk off ledges in to meatgrinders. Eh, I guess its just another brick in the wall.

I hate rap anyway.
[/quote]
You're missing what he's saying - the argument is that all the old-school rock was evil too, even though he says many of the musicians have a gift for melody. (And most of these critics seem still stuck in the '70s when discussing rock music).

And, btw, you're thinking of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall Part II" there, not Led Zeppelin. ("We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control . . .") The meatgrinder scene was from the movie version of [i]The Wall[/i].

[quote name='philothea' post='1006916' date='Jun 16 2006, 11:46 AM']
Actually, the creation of modern popular music takes vast amounts of work, technical skill, and engineering. "Unrefined" its not. It's so refined often the performers can't reproduce the released songs in a live performance anymore. "Informal" is the word he's looking for.

Superficial and vulgar are in the ears of the listener. Cheap? Well, if I can get the iTune...
[/quote]
He means "unrefined" in the sense of "uncultured" or "uncivilized."

And technical sound engineering is not the same thing as musicianship.
Much of contemporary pop music is increasingly lacking in even basic musicianship, no matter how slick and sophisticated the technical production may be.

[Dave]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1007405' date='Jun 17 2006, 05:58 PM']
Is this previous pastor a Fr. Basil Nortz by any chance?
[/quote]

Nope, afraid not.

[Anastasia13]

Oh my gosh, that sermon is so wrong and aweful. This might be too late for helping Dave out, but there are other points that I think could be made on this topic.

The variety of types of music actual bring glory to God in a way. God is creative (He made the world) and in a way even musical (He made the sounds of the world and said sing and dance unto the Lord). We are made in His image. To explore the creation and appreciation of various styles of music is in and of itself to exercise the creativity that He gave us.

Air1 plays Christian rock music and has played many testamonies of how the music they play has ministered to people and encouraged them to continue in their Christian faith.

Sometimes secular music expresses aspects of life that most Christian music doesn't even while remaining fairly wholesome. One of my favorite songs from a couple years ago was 100 years by Five For Fighting. It's about appreciating the different stages of life that go through. It kind of ministered to me in a way when I heard it because I tend to want to be in a rush to do lots of things, but it was a reminder to be patient in a way that I never heard Christian music do.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1006961' date='Jun 16 2006, 02:14 PM'] Its subjective. Organ music was considered lewd and vile prior to it being instituted in the Church. [/quote]

How much history do you know about the organ? Why was it allowed and nothing else? (There's a good reason, and if you don't know I'll let you find it or ask Andy. )

If it's so subjective, how come certain music has certain purposes, such as--as most people on here agree--rap and rock are not appropriate for Mass?