GIRM question about musical instruments

[missionseeker]

I know it says organs and no pianos but what if you have a piano keyboard that sounds like an organ?

[url="http://music.yamaha.com/products/category.html;jsessionid=ADFABE0A4711D26688DDDEDB74C40423?groupId=18"]Clavinova[/url]


Is it the sound of the piano that we don't want (since it's a percusion instrument) or is the piano itself?

Would they be acceptable? It seems like they would be more acceptable than a piano.

Just wondering.

[phatcatholic]

where does it say "no piano" in the GIRM?

[missionseeker]

Sorry not the GIRM.

The Sacro Sanctum Consilium ( I think )

I'm still on lots of meds.

[phatcatholic]

SC does say that the organ should have pride of place, but it doesn't say anything about "no pianos" maybe you should rest and come back when you have a clear head :

[franciscanheart]

I was about to say ... !

[missionseeker]

whoa, you're both on here at once. That never happens anymore.

[journeyman]

If you find one of Cam's postings on instruments (check debate - especially when guitars are the subject), he'll provide chapter and verse re the guidelines.

The key phrase in the GIRM appears to be # 393

While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be used in liturgical services in the dioceses of the United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, provided they are truly apt for sacred use or can be rendered apt.

Given prior condemnation of the piano, and the declared aptness of the organ, the argument would be the piano (or the guitar or other instrument) cannot be made apt.

One of the more logical arguments against the guitar is that without amplification (which I think is another prohibition), it is not well suited to congregational singing (especially large congregations) as it gets drowned out.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Sacrosanctum Concilium #120']In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.[/quote]

[quote name='Tra Le Sollecitudini #19']The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.[/quote]

Now, if the employment of the piano is forbidden, as are drums, cymbals, bells and the like, how can it fufill the mandate of Sacrosanctum Concilium #120? If there is to be an organic growth, the logical answer is that it cannot.

By common acception, the piano is considered to be a secular instrument. And that is forbidden for use in the Church because it cannot be rendered apt, precisely because it is a secular istrument, much like the guitar or much like drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

Here is what the Church teaches about aptness;
[quote name='De Musica Sacra #60']The following principles for the use of musical instruments in the sacred liturgy are to be recalled:

a) Because of the nature, sanctity, and dignity of the sacred liturgy, the playing of any musical instrument should be as perfect as possible. It would be preferable to omit the use of instruments entirely (whether it be the organ only, or any other instrument), than to play them in a manner unbecoming their purpose. As a general rule it is better to do something well, however modest, than to attempt something more elaborate without the proper means.

b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.[/quote]

Looking to the last sentence of paragraph b; we see that some instruments are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use. The piano would fall into this category. How? Ask Barry Manilow, Lionel Ritchie, or Vanessa Carlton or any host of secular musicians. The piano is more recognizable through them than through the Church.

However, the more stable aspect of this is that Tra Le Sollectudini is the prohibitor of the piano and if Sacrosanctum Concilium is read and applied with tradition and Tradition in mind, then the piano cannot be considered apt nor can bells, drums and cymbals.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I wonder what the "liturgical music director" would say/do if I sent her that...

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1005176' date='Jun 13 2006, 09:38 PM']
Now, if the employment of the piano is forbidden, as are drums, cymbals, bells and the like, how can it fufill the mandate of Sacrosanctum Concilium #120? If there is to be an organic growth, the logical answer is that it cannot.

By common acception, the piano is considered to be a secular instrument. And that is forbidden for use in the Church because it cannot be rendered apt, precisely because it is a secular istrument, much like the guitar or much like drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

Here is what the Church teaches about aptness;
Looking to the last sentence of paragraph b; we see that some instruments are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use. The piano would fall into this category. How? Ask Barry Manilow, Lionel Ritchie, or Vanessa Carlton or any host of secular musicians. The piano is more recognizable through them than through the Church.

However, the more stable aspect of this is that Tra Le Sollectudini is the prohibitor of the piano and if Sacrosanctum Concilium is read and applied with tradition and Tradition in mind, then the piano cannot be considered apt nor can bells, drums and cymbals.
[/quote]


I knew I read that... somewhere.

Thanks.

So you're asying that even if the piano keyboard sounds like an organ, it cannot be used because a piano cannot in any way be made apt?

[Cam42]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1005219' date='Jun 13 2006, 10:57 PM']
I knew I read that... somewhere.

Thanks.

So you're asying that even if the piano keyboard sounds like an organ, it cannot be used because a piano cannot in any way be made apt?
[/quote]

Following logically, the progression of Church teaching and tradition, yes.

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1005183' date='Jun 13 2006, 10:41 PM']
I wonder what the "liturgical music director" would say/do if I sent her that...
[/quote]

If he is orthodox, he will agree, if he is heterodox, he will disagree. I am using "he" in the generic sense...most "liturgical music directors" are "shes."

[Cam42]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1004408' date='Jun 13 2006, 12:38 AM']
I know it says organs and no pianos but what if you have a piano keyboard that sounds like an organ?

[url="http://music.yamaha.com/products/category.html;jsessionid=ADFABE0A4711D26688DDDEDB74C40423?groupId=18"]Clavinova[/url]
Is it the sound of the piano that we don't want (since it's a percusion instrument) or is the piano itself?

Would they be acceptable? It seems like they would be more acceptable than a piano.

Just wondering.
[/quote]

The clavinova is not acceptable merely because it is like a piano, but rather because the sound of the instrument is synthesized. That is also forbidden.

[indescribable]

Cam do you know of any dioceses/ regions that adhere to this strictly? Its just that until I ventured upon the debate board, I've never heard of this traditional stance on music. I dont' want to debate, but just be informed.

[missionseeker]

i thought that might be true.
I hate it when there's a perfectly good organ sitting there and they use guitars ...


*shivers*

[phatcatholic]

it seems to me that if you have a keyboard that sounds like an organ, u could use it, as long as you are always using it to make organ sounds. i mean, isn't it the sound of the instrument that is important?