How Many?

[jasJis]

I laughed so hard it made me ink.

Circles,

Please read the posts that people respond and explain to you. I know you don't represent the majority of Protestants. I'm happily Catholic because of the many Protestants in my life that helped me recognize the many ways God gives us His grace, and our inner aching and need for His grace. I'm ecstatic that I was blessed enough to have a Catholic family that exposed me to Catholicism and the graces God bestows through the Sacraments.

God graced me with many, many Protestant friends that helped point me in the right direction. Though their Christian aim is very accurate, Catholicism provides the fullness of the graces to remain (or sometimes re-aim) on target and moving along. No, mulls. We don't say nCC's shouldn't evangelize. I certainly wouldn't say that. But they are limited in their Truths and fullness of Grace. God gives more than adequately, but shaken down, packed tight, full measure to overflowing abundantly. I'm not looking for 'just enough'. I want all He is desiring to give.

[cmotherofpirl]

Amen, Cmom. Preach it, sister.

QUOTE (Circle_Master @ Dec 31 2003, 07:41 PM)

"it is not my personal view, it is the view of many. and the shame is that to rely on Christ alone is not taught anywhere within the Catholic Church. you can say that it is, but then you say you must have sacraments, and you must have confession to a priest, and you must have this, and that, and this, and that. that is baggage which denies what grace is. A gift. nothing to work for, nothing to do for it, God drew us out of the depths of sin despite our best efforts, and we are in His grace and His grace alone."

Circle’s statement here was a favorite argument at the Presbyterian church I was attending before starting RCIA. Of course, in that church, many people walked the line of antinomianism, but that’s another thread. I had been discussing Catholicism with one of the elders, and one day last spring he asked me, “Is Jesus enough? Or do I need a priest to confess to? Do I need sacraments? Do I need icons?”

I thought about that question often over the following weeks and months, and kept having to answer yes – I do need to confess to a priest, I need sacraments, I need the Church’s art. In short, I need the Church – we all do. The idea of relying solely on Christ has a certain appeal, perhaps because of its simplicity. But Christ did not arrive in a vacuum – there was a context to his coming and to his life. Through the Church, I better understand that context, and through that understanding, I know Christ more fully. I cannot know the breadth and richness of Christ outside of his Church.

Through my experiences in Protestant churches, I saw so many different versions of the Truth – no consistency. Churches have split over issues big and small, and bicker back and forth incessantly. I saw no unity, and no basis for authority. Every denomination I attended – Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, Assemblies of God, etc. – thought they had a corner on the Truth. But none of these had any real basis to their claims. Only the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus, has any ground on which to claim authority of this magnitude. And the theology of this Church, like a good wine, has with age acquired a fullness, depth, and richness, that no young denomination can rival.

Circle, you call confession to a priest and the other sacraments baggage, and say those things deny what grace is. I never understood grace until I saw it in the sacraments. And while I had glimpses of Christ in all the churches I attended, including the one I grew up in, I feel like the scales have been peeled from my eyes through the Catholic Church. This is no blind faith – I have the freedom to be able to explore Christ more fully through the teachings of the Church – teachings that I can trust to be infallible. Amazing. This is getting long, so I'm going to stop now.

Peace,

Sojourner

WORD!!!

and I love your avatar

[Bruce S]

As for 30,000 denominations being "illogical and ignorant," I quote:

"According to David B. Barrett, coauthor of the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are now 33,800 different Christian denominations."

Newsweek Magazine, April 16, 2001, page 49.

Are you goint to continue the BIG LIE here?

Or tell the TRUTH?

the VERY SAME article YOU QUOTE, ****ALSO*** has Catholicism listed as over **200** DIFFERENT "denominations"

We have posted the link to the ENTIRE article, so don't mislead.

IF you want to persist in quoting a resource, do it accurately.

It is the BIG LIE and I will continue to harp on it, as long as you guys continue to hang on it.

There are REALLY about 300 denominations that have any members at all, counting MY church, the Assembly of God as OVER 1,000 "different denominations" as Bartlett does, since each church is independently owned and incorporated, is typical of the BS that makes this study just meaningless.

DUH.

Get honest here, and stop LYING, you KNOW that this is blather, and yet you PERSIST in the BIG LIE. Stop, it makes you look like a fool.

OR quote the SAME INFORMATION SOURCE and how many "different denominations" the SAME source claims for Catholicsm.

OK?

[[jas]]

If you want to spread truth, spread the GOOD NEWS TO PEOPLE THAT DON"T HAVE GOD IN THEIR LIVES>>>NOT BY TRYING TO SWAY PEOPLE FROM THEIR CONVICTION IN CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH JUST BECAUSE IT DOESN"T AGREE WITH YOUR PERSONAL VIEW OF IT................

THANKYOU!

[cmotherofpirl]

Are you goint to continue the BIG LIE here?

Or tell the TRUTH?

the VERY SAME article YOU QUOTE,  ****ALSO*** has Catholicism listed as over **200** DIFFERENT "denominations"

We have posted the link to the ENTIRE article, so don't mislead.

IF you want to persist in quoting a resource, do it accurately.

It is the BIG LIE and I will continue to harp on it, as long as you guys continue to hang on it.

There are REALLY about 300 denominations that have any members at all, counting MY church, the Assembly of God as OVER 1,000 "different denominations" as Bartlett does, since each church is independently owned and incorporated, is typical of the BS that makes this study just meaningless.

DUH.

Get honest here, and stop LYING, you KNOW that this is blather, and yet you PERSIST in the BIG LIE. Stop, it makes you look like a fool.

OR quote the SAME INFORMATION SOURCE and how many "different denominations" the SAME source claims for Catholicsm.

OK?

THe truth is that Jesus left ONE Church, not many little splinter groups, so anything more than one will always be wrong.

2, 20 or 200: it will always be wrong.

ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Lord!

Edited January 1, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Circle_Master]

Through my experiences in Protestant churches, I saw so many different versions of the Truth – no consistency. Churches have split over issues big and small, and bicker back and forth incessantly. I saw no unity, and no basis for authority. Every denomination I attended – Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, Assemblies of God, etc. – thought they had a corner on the Truth. But none of these had any real basis to their claims. Only the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus, has any ground on which to claim authority of this magnitude. And the theology of this Church, like a good wine, has with age acquired a fullness, depth, and richness, that no young denomination can rival.

Yes, the theology of the Catholic Church has acquired much more than anything at the pentecostal church. And I am sorry you saw so many versions of the Truth. I as well have visited .. probably around 30 protestant churches, and they have all had the same, exact, truth. There were differences in how it is done (like rites), and some disagreed on eschatology, or gifts, or other stuff. Woah, just like the Catholic church has some disagreements in it! Hm... They are sanctified disagreements, ours arent, I understand now

Circle, you call confession to a priest and the other sacraments baggage, and say those things deny what grace is. I never understood grace until I saw it in the sacraments. And while I had glimpses of Christ in all the churches I attended, including the one I grew up in, I feel like the scales have been peeled from my eyes through the Catholic Church. This is no blind faith – I have the freedom to be able to explore Christ more fully through the teachings of the Church – teachings that I can trust to be infallible. Amazing. This is getting long, so I'm going to stop now.

Grace is really having to do something to get something? I'm sorry, do a word study on the word. Grace is "unmeritted favor". UNMERITTED. Let me repeat it again, UNMERITTED. Meaning we haven't earned any of it, and that it is by nothing we do.

Circles,

Please read the posts that people respond and explain to you.

I always read them.

God graced me with many, many Protestant friends that helped point me in the right direction. Though their Christian aim is very accurate, Catholicism provides the fullness of the graces to remain (or sometimes re-aim) on target and moving along. No, mulls. We don't say nCC's shouldn't evangelize. I certainly wouldn't say that. But they are limited in their Truths and fullness of Grace. God gives more than adequately, but shaken down, packed tight, full measure to overflowing abundantly. I'm not looking for 'just enough'. I want all He is desiring to give.

That is surprising since you claim none of us can interpret the Bible! Just like Apollos and the Bereans couldn't! Let me ask you this, when you go to evangelize do you say "Join my church, and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved!" or do you say "Jesus Christ has died for all so that all may come to Him. Will you take up your cross and join us in eternal life? (paraphrase)" If you really say "if you join my institution God can give you eternal lifeeee....." that is something found no where in Scripture. Not even in the OT with the Jews as there were God-fearers who had salvation outside of the Jews then. And no, not because they were "Extended" God's mercy. But because "Abraham believed God and it was attributed to him as righteousness".

ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Lord!

why is there a command to be unified because of this? if it is talking about one church, then you are already unified.

sorry for the long posts but I don't like to leave anyone out .

[cmotherofpirl]

Why is there a call for unity?

Because he knew the wolves and lions skulk around with false doctrines seeking someone to devour.

Since He was God, he knew about Luther.

[Circle_Master]

ah, but read Ephesians 4 again (which is where I assume you grabbed it from). It says to have unity so we may ... ACT AS A BODY. Using all our gifts together. Not to battle false doctrine (although other passages speak of that, things like Titus and 2 Timothy argue for leadership to combat false doctrine. i.e. elders)

[Katholikos]

Are you goint to continue the BIG LIE here?

Or tell the TRUTH?

the VERY SAME article YOU QUOTE,  ****ALSO*** has Catholicism listed as over **200** DIFFERENT "denominations"

We have posted the link to the ENTIRE article, so don't mislead.

IF you want to persist in quoting a resource, do it accurately.

It is the BIG LIE and I will continue to harp on it, as long as you guys continue to hang on it.

There are REALLY about 300 denominations that have any members at all, counting MY church, the Assembly of God as OVER 1,000 "different denominations" as Bartlett does, since each church is independently owned and incorporated, is typical of the BS that makes this study just meaningless.

DUH.

Get honest here, and stop LYING, you KNOW that this is blather, and yet you PERSIST in the BIG LIE. Stop, it makes you look like a fool.

OR quote the SAME INFORMATION SOURCE and how many "different denominations" the SAME source claims for Catholicsm.

OK?

Bruce S, you have not examined Barrett's work independently, but have assumed that Svendsen's analysis of it is correct. You call other liars on the basis of this man's opinion. But what if Svensen is himself the liar? You have an obligation in Christian charity to analyze Barrett's work for yourself before making these sweeping assumptions and allegations and engaging in name-calling.

All those who have a copy of this two-volume, technical work in their home, or have gone to their local library to examine it for themselves, raise your hand. Is my hand the only one that is raised? I'll bet it is.

I posted some of my correspondence with Svendsen that took place in 2001 on another thread you started or contributed to about 30,000 denominations. You seem not to have read it.

Svendsen is the one who is wrong. Barrett is the statistician, not Svendsen. He is also an Anglican clergyman. Svendsen does, in the final analysis, admit to 8,196 denominations. As I told him, that's plenty, plenty, to prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura. That's the point of any Catholic who refers to the chaos that is Protestantism.

Svenden misrepresents the facts about the Catholic Church. Anyone who claims the "Rites" within Catholicism are separate "denominations" with different doctrines and beliefs has not bothered to learn the truth.

Barrett says in his World Christian Encyclopedia, "As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although A SINGLE ORGANIZATION, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries" (Definitions of key variables and technical terms).

Since Protestant denominations are not world-wide like the Catholic Church is, one would have to count how many countries contain each one of the thousands of Protestant denominations. I have not done this, because it's really irrelevant. The important point is that there are THOUSANDS of them that have been reported, analyzed, and categorized as true DENOMINATIONS, i.e., separate belief systems. All of these conflicting and competing denominations each claims to teach the absolute truth and each is based on the very same partial, abbreviated, 66-book Bible which was desecrated by Martin Luther, who appointed himself to remove part of its contents.

I report the statement in Newsweek because obviously Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek religion editor, didn't feel the need to count the Protestant denominations by country either, and he reported the total from page 10. Others use Newsweek -- and other books and magazines that quote the total as reported by Barrett on page 10 of his Encyclopedia -- as their source. So they aren't "lying" as Bruce S and others charge. They're reporting what they have read from reliable sources.

If you don't like Barrett's (verified) numbers, use the Handbook of Christian Denominations in the United States. It's incomplete, as it does not include denominations of less than 200 members, and omits the so-called "nondenominational denominations" and "indepent denominations," but it gives one an idea of just how splintered Protestantism is.

No matter which statistical study one uses, or whether one uses a world-wide perspective or measures each country individually, there are thousands of Protestant denominations, any way you count them.

And that's the point.

And there is only ONE Catholic Church.

Peace be with you and with all,

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Sojourner]

Grace is really having to do something to get something?  I'm sorry, do a word study on the word.  Grace is "unmeritted favor".  UNMERITTED.  Let me repeat it again, UNMERITTED.  Meaning we haven't earned any of it, and that it is by nothing we do.

Circle,

What in my words led you to think I believe I in my own merit deserve grace? That’s not what I believe, and to the best of my knowledge not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1996: “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” Emphasis theirs.

This same section goes on to further define grace, and in the following section there is a discussion of the term “merit.” Again a quote from the Catechism, emphasis theirs, paragraph 2008: “The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”

Any typos in the above quotes are my errors. I hate to throw around official stuff like this, but I think this does a good job of clarifying my position. In my mind there’s no question that I don’t in way in and of myself merit God’s grace – it is freely given, and freely accepted. The sacraments confer to the grace that they signify – by receiving the sacraments, I receive grace by Christ’s work, not my own.

I want to respond to a couple of other things in your post, but don’t have time right now. Don't worry, I'll get to it eventually.

Peace,

Sojourner

[mulls]

i'm still waiting to hear the 34,000+ different Gospels.

come on guys.

Edited January 1, 2004 by mulls

[Circle_Master]

Katholikos -

Bruce S, you have not examined Barrett's work independently, but have assumed that Svendsen's analysis of it is correct. You call other liars on the basis of this man's opinion. But what if Svensen is himself the liar? You have an obligation in Christian charity to analyze Barrett's work for yourself before making these sweeping assumptions and allegations and engaging in name-calling.

No matter which statistical study one uses, or whether one uses a world-wide perspective or measures each country individually, there are thousands of Protestant denominations, any way you count them.

And that's the point.

Can't you just admit you are wrong about the article Katholikos? It's really tough and requires LOTS of patience when someone cannot admit when they are wrong.

What in my words led you to think I believe I in my own merit deserve grace?

...

I never understood grace until I saw it in the sacraments.

Because you never understood it, until you did something. Therefore it was no longer grace.

Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1996: “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” Emphasis theirs.

The only part I would argue against that is help really downplays it. I like Augustines illustration of grace. If salvation is the shore, then we, as unsaved Christians are in the middle of the ocean with broken legs, and broken arms sinking. It is more than help, it is everything. I'm sorry if I bumbled the illustration, so please don't correct me with a text dump, but his illustration has the same point as mine.

[Sojourner]

The only part I would argue against that is help really downplays it. I like Augustines illustration of grace. If salvation is the shore, then we, as unsaved Christians are in the middle of the ocean with broken legs, and broken arms sinking. It is more than help, it is everything. I'm sorry if I bumbled the illustration, so please don't correct me with a text dump, but his illustration has the same point as mine.

No worries about me dumping on you here – I’m not such a big fan of that either.

I'm not familiar enough with the particular illustration you cite to comment directly on that. However, from what I have read about and by Augustine, he appears to draw a balance between God’s grace and man’s free will. Like so many areas of faith, there is a tension between these two things, and rather than making it an either/or proposition Augustine manages to remain poised somewhere in the middle.

I would say that nothing I can do for myself will ever be better than what God did for me, and any good work I am able to do is only through God’s grace. Along with this, God made me in his image. “God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and to love him,” reads the CCC, par. 2002. By exercising free choice, I don't take away from the amesomeness of God's grace -- instead, I am giving glory to God by acting as he made me to act.

[Circle_Master]

that post, agreed. (well, on the main points, some of the smaller are acceptable imo)

Edited January 1, 2004 by Circle_Master

[frozencell]

I REPEAT --

de·nom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)

n.

A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith AND name AND organized under a single administrative AND legal hierarchy.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth

Edition

It only seems self-explanatory.