How Many?

[Circle_Master]

it is not my personal view, it is the view of many. and the shame is that to rely on Christ alone is not taught anywhere within the Catholic Church. you can say that it is, but then you say you must have sacraments, and you must have confession to a priest, and you must have this, and that, and this, and that. that is baggage which denies what grace is. A gift. nothing to work for, nothing to do for it, God drew us out of the depths of sin despite our best efforts, and we are in His grace and His grace alone.

[Sammy Blaze]

Let's celebrate the unity Christ Jesus has given us....

not what seperates us.................... ~S.

I'm out, if you need me, I'll be spreading God's message by acts of LOVE....

Happy and Blessed New Year's EVERYONE!!!!!!! :D ~S.

[Circle_Master]

ahhh repeat! sorry

Edited December 31, 2003 by Circle_Master

[cmotherofpirl]

it is not my personal view, it is the view of many. and the shame is that to rely on Christ alone is not taught anywhere within the Catholic Church. you can say that it is, but then you say you must have sacraments, and you must have confession to a priest, and you must have this, and that, and this, and that. that is baggage which denies what grace is. A gift. nothing to work for, nothing to do for it, God drew us out of the depths of sin despite our best efforts, and we are in His grace and His grace alone.

If Christ had showed up one day, preached a sermon and died on a cross, and had left no structure to keep proclaiming his message and do the things he asked us to do, you wouldn't be here.

[Circle_Master]

very true, which is why He led the apostles to teach and direct the early church. the 'structure' that grew through the middle ages God also used to keep His Scripture (the monks) and for salvation. I don't deny God using the Catholic Church, I do deny the Catholic Church being the only method of salvation and the container of Sacred Tradition.

[Katholikos]

Being fairly new to the board ive only seen a glimpse of some of the topics but ive seen many reference to how many different denominations there are. I would like to just clear one thing up..

There is a difference between christian life doctrine and church life doctrine (or primary and secondary or fellowship breaking and church breaking). For example

One of the biggest difference between the baptists and the presbytarians is the understanding of infant baptism. This has a lot to do with church practice but nothing to do with salvation. They both have the same gospel.. at least as far as their confessions are concerened. Somethings are secondary such as does christ return before or after the rapture.. does this have a lot of application today? Not really, do churches split over it.. im sure they do.

And just because the reformation happened doesn't mean the catholic church was always in error. The definition of "reform" means going back to the way it was. The catholic church didn't always put mary in the place she is now.. also it didn't always believe in free will (remember you condemned pelagian and now it basically is pelagian). So things have changed, remember vatican II?

I don't think its fair to pull the "30,000 denominations" line out when its illogical, and in humility, its ignorant.

Please research the history and causes of denominationalism and do an in-depth analysis of the doctrinal differences among them. Some of us at phatmass have reported the results of a statistical analysis (the World Christian Encyclopedia) by men who have made a study of denominations their life's work.

There are about 200 kinds of Baptists and many, many splits in the fabric of Presbyterianism. All Protestant denominations are man made, are splintered, and all are the result of the unfortunate doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Denominational differences are major to the adherents, not minor. Zwingli's differences with Calvin are much deeper than the one issue you mention.

As for 30,000 denominations being "illogical and ignorant," I quote:

"According to David B. Barrett, coauthor of the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are now 33,800 different Christian denominations."

Newsweek Magazine, April 16, 2001, page 49.

As for the rest of your post, Catholic doctrine has not changed since the Depositum Fidei was delivered once for all by the Apostles (Jude 3); the Church has always venerated the Virgin Mary exactly as she does now; the Church has always believed in free will because the Apostles taught it; Vatican II introduced no new doctrines. Vatican I defined old doctrines, but the doctrines themselves are as old as the Church -- and the Church is as old as Christianity. Want to try again? And please, study Catholicism before you try to tell us what the Church teaches.

Peace be to you and to all,

JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

very true, which is why He led the apostles to teach and direct the early church.  the 'structure' that grew through the middle ages God also used to keep His Scripture (the monks) and for salvation.  I don't deny God using the Catholic Church, I do deny the Catholic Church being the only method of salvation and the container of Sacred Tradition.

Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, did not write a word. He did not instruct His Apostles to write. He did not leave us a book. He left us a Church. He said the Church was Himself (Acts 9:1-5). And He said, "He who hears you (the leaders of the Church), hears ME, and he who rejects you (the leaders of the Church), rejects ME . . . Lk 10:16). The Church wrote the New Testament. The Church canonized and formed OT and NT and called it ta Biblia -- the Bible -- when she was nearly 400 years old.

The Church is the "household of God, church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." 1 Tim 3:15.

The Bible in Protestant hands is stolen property. It was written by the Church to the Church and for the Church. It can't be understood outside of the context in which it was written. So you'll never understand it. That's why there are so many wrong interpretations of it.

Certainly, the Church is the bearer of Sacred Tradition. She is the only Church that is 2,000 years old and was present when the Apostles lived and taught.

Christ founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world. Pity that you cannot allow yourself to investigate her claims.

Around 300 Protestant clergymen a year are becoming Catholic through the Coming Home Network. What do these Protestant ministers know that you don't?

Pace bene, Likos

[mulls]

I have a question CM,

The truth......................

You believe the Christ is our Saviour.................................

The person you debate believes Christ is his Saviour......................

I believe that Christ is my Saviour...................................

I've considered the many perspectives of Christianity, and I choose to be CATHOLIC....many phatmass members have chosen to be CATHOLIC after they have sought the truth, questioned and rethought...... as have my Catholics to other forms of Christianity.......so simply put...GET OVER IT!!!!

If you want to spread truth, spread the GOOD NEWS TO PEOPLE THAT DON"T HAVE GOD IN THEIR LIVES>>>NOT BY TRYING TO SWAY PEOPLE FROM THEIR CONVICTION IN CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH JUST BECAUSE IT DOESN"T AGREE WITH YOUR PERSONAL VIEW OF IT................

Can I get an AMEN in here?

Yours always in CHrist

~S.

haven't you heard?

protestants aren't allowed to spread the Good News, since we don't have the full Truth, and would only be spreading lies and misconceptions to others.

if you don't believe me, ask a few of your Catholic bretheren, they will agree, as I have been told this over and over again.

[inDEED]

I have a question CM,

The truth......................

You believe the Christ is our Saviour.................................

The person you debate believes Christ is his Saviour......................

I believe that Christ is my Saviour...................................

I've considered the many perspectives of Christianity, and I choose to be CATHOLIC....many phatmass members have chosen to be CATHOLIC after they have sought the truth, questioned and rethought...... as have my Catholics to other forms of Christianity.......so simply put...GET OVER IT!!!!

If you want to spread truth, spread the GOOD NEWS TO PEOPLE THAT DON"T HAVE GOD IN THEIR LIVES>>>NOT BY TRYING TO SWAY PEOPLE FROM THEIR CONVICTION IN CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH JUST BECAUSE IT DOESN"T AGREE WITH YOUR PERSONAL VIEW OF IT................

Can I get an AMEN in here?

Yours always in CHrist

~S.

New sig...

[mulls]

There are 34,000 +, and they do not preach the same Gospel.

Ironmonk,

prove it.

prove none of the 34,000 + preach the same Gospel as the rest.

are you willing to look up 34,000 so-called denominations and study their statements of faith and what they believe the Gospel to be?

if not, then I would retract this statement, immediately

you accuse others of lying quite often, now i am accusing you of the same. please prove me wrong.

start small.....find 100 completely different denominations, which have no affiliation with each other, and show how the Gospel of each differs from that of the next.

i'm serious.

[Guest GodsPrincess]

Interesting challenge Circle. I've been to many different churches who support each other, and the only real disagreements were so small they didn't bother arguing.

Edited January 1, 2004 by GodsPrincess

[MartinLuther]

Barrett and his World Christian Encyclopedia use a non-standard definition of denomination that does not allow for a denomination to span multiple countries.

Even the American Catholic Truth Society's site says is it is not justifiable to use Barrett to claim that there are 8196 30000 or 33820 protestant denominations.

from http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.co...ippery_rock.htm

"Whatever might be concluded from all of this, one thing is clear: Barrett does not understand “denomination” in the way that almost everyone else does. We therefore have no reason to accept his division of Roman Catholicism into 223 denominations. But by that same token, we also should question his division of Protestantism into a projected 8,196 denominations. If we are unwilling to accept the existence of 223 Roman Catholic denominations, then we have to question his whole idea of “denomination,’ an idea which is also used to arrive at the figure of 8,196 Protestant denominations."

"What Svendsen’s research shows us is not that we are unjustified in claiming greater unity within Catholicism, but simply that we are unjustified in citing any specific figure in regards to Protestant disunity, whether that figure be 30,000, 25,000, 8,196 or any other figure. We too would insist that Protestants are unjustified in citing the figure of 223 Roman Catholic denominations, or any of the higher figures Barrett also provides."

I think the American Catholic Truth Society is a lot closer to the truth on this issue than some catholic apologists posting on this site. Is it too much to expect that those who argue for a church which claims a monopoly on the "fullness of truth" to truthfully represent the research on this issue?

I expect that quite a few of the 33,820 supposedly protestant denominations listed in Barrett are not protestant at all but actually Orthodox, or those that claim to be Catholic (even if not recognised as Catholic by the Vatican), or those that arent even christian such as Mormons or JWs.

While many of the denominations are due to different beliefs, this isn't the only reason for the differences between denominations. If you look closely at the World Christian Database site based on Barretts WCE, you will notice that some of the different denominations are different by location, by race, by language, by culture etc.

There could possibly be 30,000 or more protestant denominations but Barrett's work doesnt prove this, and it is misleading to say that it does.

[mulls]

Interesting challenge Circle. I've been to many different churches who support each other, and the only real disagreements were so small they didn't bother arguing.

hey i said that!

by the way, welcome GodsPrincess! :D

[Sojourner]

If Christ had showed up one day, preached a sermon and died on a cross, and had left no structure to keep proclaiming his message and do the things he asked us to do, you wouldn't be here.

Amen, Cmom. Preach it, sister.

QUOTE (Circle_Master @ Dec 31 2003, 07:41 PM)

"it is not my personal view, it is the view of many. and the shame is that to rely on Christ alone is not taught anywhere within the Catholic Church. you can say that it is, but then you say you must have sacraments, and you must have confession to a priest, and you must have this, and that, and this, and that. that is baggage which denies what grace is. A gift. nothing to work for, nothing to do for it, God drew us out of the depths of sin despite our best efforts, and we are in His grace and His grace alone."

Circle’s statement here was a favorite argument at the Presbyterian church I was attending before starting RCIA. Of course, in that church, many people walked the line of antinomianism, but that’s another thread. I had been discussing Catholicism with one of the elders, and one day last spring he asked me, “Is Jesus enough? Or do I need a priest to confess to? Do I need sacraments? Do I need icons?”

I thought about that question often over the following weeks and months, and kept having to answer yes – I do need to confess to a priest, I need sacraments, I need the Church’s art. In short, I need the Church – we all do. The idea of relying solely on Christ has a certain appeal, perhaps because of its simplicity. But Christ did not arrive in a vacuum – there was a context to his coming and to his life. Through the Church, I better understand that context, and through that understanding, I know Christ more fully. I cannot know the breadth and richness of Christ outside of his Church.

Through my experiences in Protestant churches, I saw so many different versions of the Truth – no consistency. Churches have split over issues big and small, and bicker back and forth incessantly. I saw no unity, and no basis for authority. Every denomination I attended – Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, Assemblies of God, etc. – thought they had a corner on the Truth. But none of these had any real basis to their claims. Only the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus, has any ground on which to claim authority of this magnitude. And the theology of this Church, like a good wine, has with age acquired a fullness, depth, and richness, that no young denomination can rival.

Circle, you call confession to a priest and the other sacraments baggage, and say those things deny what grace is. I never understood grace until I saw it in the sacraments. And while I had glimpses of Christ in all the churches I attended, including the one I grew up in, I feel like the scales have been peeled from my eyes through the Catholic Church. This is no blind faith – I have the freedom to be able to explore Christ more fully through the teachings of the Church – teachings that I can trust to be infallible. Amazing. This is getting long, so I'm going to stop now.

Peace,

Sojourner

[littleflower+JMJ]

Circle’s statement here was a favorite argument at the Presbyterian church I was attending before starting RCIA. Of course, in that church, many people walked the line of antinomianism, but that’s another thread. I had been discussing Catholicism with one of the elders, and one day last spring he asked me, “Is Jesus enough? Or do I need a priest to confess to? Do I need sacraments? Do I need icons?”

I thought about that question often over the following weeks and months, and kept having to answer yes – I do need to confess to a priest, I need sacraments, I need the Church’s art. In short, I need the Church – we all do. The idea of relying solely on Christ has a certain appeal, perhaps because of its simplicity. But Christ did not arrive in a vacuum – there was a context to his coming and to his life. Through the Church, I better understand that context, and through that understanding, I know Christ more fully. I cannot know the breadth and richness of Christ outside of his Church.

Through my experiences in Protestant churches, I saw so many different versions of the Truth – no consistency. Churches have split over issues big and small, and bicker back and forth incessantly. I saw no unity, and no basis for authority. Every denomination I attended – Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, Assemblies of God, etc. – thought they had a corner on the Truth. But none of these had any real basis to their claims. Only the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus, has any ground on which to claim authority of this magnitude. And the theology of this Church, like a good wine, has with age acquired a fullness, depth, and richness, that no young denomination can rival.

Circle, you call confession to a priest and the other sacraments baggage, and say those things deny what grace is. I never understood grace until I saw it in the sacraments. And while I had glimpses of Christ in all the churches I attended, including the one I grew up in, I feel like the scales have been peeled from my eyes through the Catholic Church. This is no blind faith – I have the freedom to be able to explore Christ more fully through the teachings of the Church – teachings that I can trust to be infallible. Amazing. This is getting long, so I'm going to stop now.

Peace,

Sojourner

*claps*

Sojourner, that was beautiful!!!

thank you for sharing.

God bless you!!!

oh! and WELCOME HOME!!! :wub: :wub:

pax christi.