Gay Marriage?

[kujo]

And if the State doesn't agree with the Church teaching?

How close is the Church supposed to be to the state?

[quote]"The Church not only recognizes and respects this distinction and autonomy, but welcomes it, considering it great progress for humanity and a fundamental condition for her very freedom and for the fulfillment of its universal mission of salvation among all peoples," Benedict XVI continued.

Moreover, Benedict explained that "without doubt, a healthy laicism of the state ensures that temporal matters are dealt with according to their own norms; to this, however, are associated ethical concerns that have their foundations in the very essence of man and that therefore, in the final analysis, can be traced back to the Creator." [/quote]

I think that we, as Catholics, should be ministering at the micro-level while the government takes care of other business. There is nothing Constitutionally-wrong with being a homosexual. The fact that we, as Catholics, hold that lifestyle to be immoral is irrelevant.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kujo' post='998875' date='Jun 6 2006, 05:38 PM']
And if the State doesn't agree with the Church teaching?

How close is the Church supposed to be to the state?
I think that we, as Catholics, should be ministering at the micro-level while the government takes care of other business. There is nothing Constitutionally-wrong with being a homosexual. The fact that we, as Catholics, hold that lifestyle to be immoral is irrelevant.
[/quote]
It is the duty of Catholics to work, where possible, to make the laws of the state reflect morality, rather than oppose it.

It is unclear how exactly your quote from the Pope supports allowing "gay marriage," but if you want the Pope's view on this topic, here is the article from which I pulled my earlier quote:
[quote][b][url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6368"]Catholics must be engaged in political debate, says Pope[/url][/b]


Vatican City, Mar. 30, 2006 (CNA) - Speaking earlier today to a group of parliamentarians from Europe’s Popular Party, Pope Benedict affirmed the need for a Catholic voice in the public square that informs consciences and helps citizens act “freely and responsibly.”

The Church has come under heavy fire in recent years--particularly in the U.S.--for engaging in political debate where some say it has no place. Critics charge that many politicians worldwide seek to relegate faith life merely to the private sphere.

Benedict reminded the parliamentarians however, "that when Churches or ecclesial communities intervene in public debate, expressing reservations or recalling various principles, this does not constitute a form of intolerance or interference.”

He said that the Church’s political interventions “are aimed solely at enlightening consciences, enabling them to act freely and responsibly, according to the true demands of justice, even when this should conflict with situations of power and personal interest."

In this light, the Pope said that the main area of the Church's intervention in the public sphere "is the protection and promotion of the dignity of the person.” “…She is thereby consciously drawing particular attention to principles which are not negotiable."

Here, he listed a number of principles for which Catholics must continue to fight. Namely, these are: "Protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death; recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family, as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage, and its defense from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role; and the protection of the right of parents to educate their children.”

While he admitted that "These principles are not truths of faith, even though they receive further light and confirmation from faith,” he stressed that “they are inscribed in human nature itself and therefore they are common to all humanity.”

The Pope explained that “The Church's action in promoting them is therefore not confessional in character, but is addressed to all people, irrespective of any religious affiliation they may have."

He closed by calling on the politicians "to be credible and consistent witnesses of these basic truths through your political activity, and more fundamentally through your commitment to live authentic and consistent lives."[/quote]

Here is a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=49982"]thread on this topic.[/url]

Separation of Church and state does not mean Christian morals can play no part in political decisions! There is nothing constitutionally wrong with opposing political efforts to give legal benefits and recognition to immoral unions, and the Pope calls on us Catholics to do just that.

What the Church teaches to be moral and immoral should indeed be very relevant to our political decisions!

[Ash Wednesday]

As a member of Church Militant, I nominate Soccer Tease for Church Militant!















...oh, wait a minute....

Edited June 7, 2006 by Ash Wednesday

[Maria]

Something I could see as perhaps being just would be the creation of 'legal parterships', or some such thing. They would be for anyone finacially dependant on eachother, or whatever. That wouldn't sanction homosexual relationships, but would give the partners legal rights, as well as giving rights to others who have been ignored. (What about 2 single siblings sharing a house and resources? Or friends, etc?)

[cmotherofpirl]

If you want to have a legal partnership you go see a lawyer. You can freely and legally stipulate who who gets your money, who has power of attorney etc, who is with you til your dying breath, without getting married.
Marriage is for legitmate union and procreation, and same sex relationships provide neither.

[kujo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='998919' date='Jun 6 2006, 09:40 PM']
If you want to have a legal partnership you go see a lawyer. You can freely and legally stipulate who who gets your money, who has power of attorney etc, who is with you til your dying breath, without getting married.
Marriage is for legitmate union and procreation, and same sex relationships provide neither.
[/quote]

If what you propose is legally-valid--meaning that it is possible-- than I would support this Amendment and oppose any further action by the government (Federal OR State, legislative, executive, judicial, etc.) to grant any other rights to homosexual couples.

Thank you CMotherofPirl...I was not aware that these legal rights were already applicable.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' post='999390' date='Jun 7 2006, 12:43 AM']
If what you propose is legally-valid--meaning that it is possible-- than I would support this Amendment and oppose any further action by the government (Federal OR State, legislative, executive, judicial, etc.) to grant any other rights to homosexual couples.

Thank you CMotherofPirl...I was not aware that these legal rights were already applicable.
[/quote]
Of course they are. You can find a lawyer to tie up your life any way you want if you pay them enough.

[Lil Red]

I thought this was pertinent from [u]Letters to a Young Catholic[/u] by George Weigel:

[quote]Then there is homosexuality. The gay movement is perhaps the most potent example of what I've been calling the "gnostic imagination" in our culture today. And that perhaps explains why Catholic Church is a principal target of gay activists. But at least let's get clear on what the deabte is about. [b]The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are morally wrong because they cannot embody the complementarity, the rhythm of giving-and-receiving, built into our embodiedness as male and female, and because such acts are intrinsically incapable of generating life.[/b]The Church does [i]not[/i] teach that a homosexual orientation is sinful; it does teach that homosexual desire is a disordered affection, a sign of spiritual disturbance.

Is this "prejudice" as gay activists charge? I don't think so. The Catholic Church flatly rejects the claim - which is really prejudice - that homosexually inclined persons are called, [i]like everyone else[/i], to live the Law of the Gift built into us "from the beginning." When a brilliant young Catholic political commentator like Andrew Sullivan writes that his gay passions are "the very core of my being," [b]the Church says, "No, that can't be right. Your desires can't be all you are; your own talent and political courage and insight testify against that.[/b] Give chastity a chance - a chance to remind you what really makes you...you."

The Catholic Church teaches what it believes to be the truth given it by Christ - a truth whose most basic elements were first inscribed on the human heart "in the beginning." At the same time, [b]the Church lives in solidarity with those very fallible human beings - all of us - who, in matters of chastity as well as in just about everything else, fall and struggle to get back up on our feet.[/b][/quote]

bolded parts are my emphasis

[ironmonk]

[quote name='kujo' post='998363' date='Jun 6 2006, 11:08 AM']
I am torn about the issue. I am a Catholic and I believe that marriage is a sacrament that is to be shared by a man and a woman.

However, some of my close friends are homosexuals and I can sort of understand their argument. Whether we like or not, these men and women are homosexuals and that will (most likely) never change. The way it is now, 2 men/women who have lived with each other for 30 years and who have not been recognized as "married" cannot even come to visit their "spouse" in the hospital because they are not considered "family." Whether or not you agree with their lifestyle, you have got to admit that that is wrong.

My feeling is that 90% of our population would be happy with some sort of compromise. If homosexuals want to have the secular benefits of marriage, I don't see what we can really say about that. Let them be "joined" at City Hall, or by a notary or whatever. But they must understand that there will never be a time when they can expect to be married in a Church. Our beliefs prohibit it and the government is obligated to respect that:
As for the other 10% of our population (5% of the extreme left, 5% of the extreme right), they will never be satisfied.

It's a complicated issue for myself, and for many others. But I don't think it would be such a big deal if these people were given the legal-stuff that comes along with marriage. Call it a "civil union," or a "partnership"....call it whatever. As long as they realize that the spiritual aspects of marriage are not there.
[/quote]

It would be a big deal.

Please take the time to read this: [url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]


If you are not against it, then you are violating Church teachings, and therefore sinning. The Catholic Church teaches that it is our responsibility to vote when we can... and to vote for Catholic morals. We are first Catholic, and secondly we are Americans (or whatever country someone lives in). If you would like me to show you the documentation on this, then please let me know and I'll get it for you.

Right and wrong is determined by God and God speaks to us through the Church. If we do not understand why something is right or wrong, then it would be wise to study up on everything where the Church speaks about the topic.

However, it is far from wise to use our own reasoning to come up with why something is right or wrong. Satan uses our own reasoning to get us to fall...

Satan: "Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?"
Eve: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.'"
Satan: "You certainly will not die! No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad."


Also, by not opposing the sin of homosexual lifestyle you contribute to their sin.


[b]Romans 1:18 [/b]
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
...
[b]26 [/b] Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
[b]27 [/b] and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
...
[b]32 [/b] Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


[b]CCC 1868 [/b]
Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers.


Here is a guide that summarizes our political responsibilities...
[url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.html"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/b...pStatement.html[/url]

Note that the proper order of priorities are:
1) Human Life
2) Family Life (no to same sex unions/marriage)
3) Social Justice
4) Global Solidarity



Violoting any of the above would be a sin. All wrong doing is sin. To disobey the Church is wrong. To think that secular equalism with the destruction of the family is "ok for others but not for me" is wrong, because it's not ok for anyone.

God is real. Please read about Fatima and St. Pio a few times and meditate on how real God is.

God has given us the rules to live by through the Church, it is of grave importance that we do what God wants and use His reasoning in our lifes and our views. God is everything right, anything that contradicts His teaching is wrong. It does not matter if someone believes in God or not when it comes down to it. God is real and they will hopefully learn sooner or later. Since you know the truth about God, you have a responsibility to promote and protect His teachings that come to us through the Church.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 7, 2006 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Maria' post='998910' date='Jun 6 2006, 09:27 PM']
Something I could see as perhaps being just would be the creation of 'legal parterships', or some such thing. They would be for anyone finacially dependant on eachother, or whatever. That wouldn't sanction homosexual relationships, but would give the partners legal rights, as well as giving rights to others who have been ignored. (What about 2 single siblings sharing a house and resources? Or friends, etc?)
[/quote]

The reason for "perks" of married people is to promote the growth of families. Not to be "fair". Non-married couples and groups do not and should not have the same "rights" as married people.

Doing anything that comes close for non-married people who do not make a life long commitment to each other will only degrade society further. Nothing good will come of it.

Too many people think some things are "rights" when they are not rights, they are the way it is.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Tufsoles]

I like how lil red qouted from one of my fave books. Also Ironmonk, I like your resoures that you stated from reliable sources. I agree with Lil red and Ironmonk on this one.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Tufsoles' post='999691' date='Jun 7 2006, 12:51 PM']I like how lil red qouted from one of my fave books. [/quote]it's one of my new favs too :