It's all the Fault of the Zionist Jews

[Mateo el Feo]

We've got some locals who are falling for the same old "blame the Jews" propoganda. Specifically, the plight of displaced Palestinians was brought up in a recent thread. There was a time when I swallowed this stuff hook, line, and sinker. May God forgive me for those days of ignorance.

While Muslims can point to the displacement of some Muslim Palestinians, they definitely don't want anyone to examine their record for minority treatment. Otherwise, someone might find out:

1) The Christian population in the Palestinian Occupied Territories has been decimated over the last few years ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christian"]link[/url]), at the same time that the Muslim population continues to increase. Is this the fault of the Israelis? (answer: no).

2) A claim was made, "the Israeli government has acted to forcibly remove the Palestinians from land which they had made their home." In reality, approximately 16.1% of Israel's current population is Muslim (i.e. not "forcibly removed from their home"). Let me adjust the above quote a little bit to reveal a much larger problem: The entire Muslim world has acted to forcibly remove the Jews from land which they had made their home. ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands"]link[/url]).

3) Muslim governments have systematically converted synagogues and churches (left behind by Jews/Christians fleeing persecution) into mosques.

4) Jewish, along with Christian, minorities have lived through periods of massacre, persecution, and forced conversion right up to the 21st century, throught the Muslim world. Arab Israelis, in contrast, enjoy freedom of religion, no religious tax (e.g. jizya), and Muslims are even members of the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset"]link[/url]).

5) Finally, the irony of all ironies: much of the Arab world will deny citizenship and a number of basic rights to Palestinian refugees. As usual Muslim Palestinians find the most freedom (including full citizenship) and the most prosperity when they leave their fellow Muslims behind and live with the "infidels" of the West.

Some may believe that Israelis are a threat to Muslim countries, and not the other way around. To them I would say, look at a map and compare the Muslim world to the state of Israel. Look at the demographics of Muslims vs. Jews in the Middle East. There's a story behind all these facts.

[musturde]

[quote]

5) Finally, the irony of all ironies: much of the Arab world will deny citizenship and a number of basic rights to Palestinian refugees. As usual Muslim Palestinians find the most freedom (including full citizenship) and the most prosperity when they leave their fellow Muslims behind and live with the "infidels" of the West.

Some may believe that Israelis are a threat to Muslim countries, and not the other way around. To them I would say, look at a map and compare the Muslim world to the state of Israel. Look at the demographics of Muslims vs. Jews in the Middle East. There's a story behind all these facts.
[/quote]

Palestinians don't get rights in other countries because so far they've tried to take over the countries they've been allowed in. It's not Muslims vs. Jews in the Middle East. It's Palestinians vs. Israelis. There are Muslims who aren't out to get the Jews. Israel is used as a scapegoat becuase of stuff SHE DID. Israel deserves the scapegoat title. People in other countries use this to get away from stuff they themselves do. I don't like people making Jews or Palestinians out to be Angels. Especially Palestinians. However, there are open minded Palestinians who got over the invasion. I know some that have an Israeli Passport. I sympathize with the Palestinians and Jews. That does not give either the right to do what they did/are doing right now. No one is innocent.

Edited June 5, 2006 by musturde

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

if y'all would read what the talmud teaches you wouldn't be so in love with the Anti-Christian Talmudic Jewish Relegion.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='musturde' post='997686' date='Jun 5 2006, 05:25 PM']It's not Muslims vs. Jews in the Middle East. It's Palestinians vs. Israelis.[/quote]Unfortunately, it [i]is[/i] Muslims vs. Jews. This is part of a pattern of Jewish scapegoating that began long before the modern state of Israel came to being. There's always a religion-based excuse for Muslims to treat Jews as sub-human. Current members of Hamas even quote the Quran where it dehumanizes Jews by referring to them as apes and pigs ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism#Muslim_beliefs_that_certain_Jews_had_been_transformed_into_apes_and_pigs"]link[/url]).

[quote]There are Muslims who aren't out to get the Jews.[/quote]Agreed. The question is: to what extent are these moderate Muslims invited to contribute to public discourse in the Muslim world?
[quote]Israel is used as a scapegoat becuase of stuff SHE DID. Israel deserves the scapegoat title.[/quote]
The Jewish/Israeli people never deserved collective guilt for what the Israelis have done. And, while Israel hasn't been 100% innocent, this has to be understood in the context of a nation fighting for its survival in a hostile and despotic neighborhood. Even today, the Iranian president is still calling for Israel's destruction.

Also, why claim that "Israel deserves the scapegoat title." Is this how we arrive at peace? We continue to dredge every sin of Israel in order to justify future inhumane behavior? This scenario of ratcheting up the violence is being played out in a similar way by Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites. There are some Iraqis who want violence to escalate. Their evils are used so that entire populations (e.g. Sunnis/Shiites) are scapegoated based on the evil acts of a few. Sunnis and Shiites of Iraq both believe that the other group "deserves the scapegoat title."

The propensity to scapegoat your enemy to the point of dehumanizing them is not the path to peace.
[quote]People in other countries use this to get away from stuff they themselves do. I don't like people making Jews or Palestinians out to be Angels. Especially Palestinians.[/quote]The point of my post was not to portray Isrealis as having no guilt. It was to complete the picture of the situation for Jews in the Middle East--one that the Muslim propoganda machine conveniently hides. Throughout the Middle East, the Jews have lived as persecuted minorities, been forced to emigrate from their homes, or died because of Muslims who repeatedly persecute based on "collective guilt." That includes even those Jews who were against the zionist ideology.

Muslim persecution of non-Muslims in the name of collective guilt is a broken record. It happened to Christian Arabs. It happened to Jewish Arabs. Most recently, the "small pockets of Islamic Extremism" have made their wrath felt by persecuting Danish--and even Europeans as a whole--collectively because of a few cartoons.

I would like to see a just resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Fifteen years ago, I had all the sympathy in the world for Palestinians, and none for the "evil Zionists." As time has progressed, I've seen the Israelis take the initiative to offer some significant concession (e.g. the withdrawal from Gaza, to name a big one), only to watch as Palestinian leaders snuffed the peace process. I can't blame the Palestinians for the behavior of their leaders; though I'm saddened that they felt the need to give Hamas control of their parliament.

Amazingly, in the year 2006, the Palestinians are still arguing whether to officially recognize the state of Israel. For me (and I think for many who hope for peace), this moving backward is a complete disappointment.

[quote]However, there are open minded Palestinians who got over the invasion. I know some that have an Israeli Passport. I sympathize with the Palestinians and Jews. That does not give either the right to do what they did/are doing right now. No one is innocent.[/quote]
I think we're in agreement. The problem is that people use the sins of the Israeli government as an excuse for all sorts of anti-semetic bigotry. And my main point above was not to exonerate the Isrealis; it was to show that Muslim propaganda against the Jews (i.e. portraying Jews and oppressors and Muslims as oppressed) is only a half-truth. The story of the Arab-Israeli conflict cannot be told without exposing how Muslim societies have negatively affected the Jewish people throughout history.

A number of years ago, I heard Hanan Ashrawi speak about the Palestinian-Isreali conflict. She mentioned (I'll paraphrase) that we shouldn't try to measure persecution, saying things like"the Jews suffered more during the Holocaust than the Palestinians under the State of Israel." We should agree that all persecution as a violation of human dignity, and work toward eradicating such transgressions. I hope I'm faithful to that viewpoint in my posts.

While I personally feel that Israeli's have sometimes failed to treat Palestinians with the dignity that they deserve, I believe that most of the criticism that Muslims throw at Israelis is blatantly hypocritical. For example: they can try to delegitimize the establishment of Israel as an "unlawful invasion"; but, then how would their rule for legitimacy go if they applied it to Mohammed? For example, Mohammed denied non-Muslims the full benefits of citizenship. What criterion justifies Muslim imperialist expansion that impacts (and kills) millions, yet rejects the establishment of the modern state of Israel?

Mustarde, I think the important thing for all parties to do is to look for excuses for peace and lifting up the cause of human dignity, and stop looking for ways to scapegoat and stereotype as a means to heighten conflict.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='997737' date='Jun 5 2006, 06:50 PM']
if y'all would read what the talmud teaches you wouldn't be so in love with the Anti-Christian Talmudic Jewish Relegion.[/quote]I've got a few responses to this comment.

1) The "Talmudic Jews" generally reject the idea that the alleged references discuss Christianity's Jesus. ([url="http://talmud.faithweb.com/"]link[/url]). The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on the Talmud ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14435b.htm"]link[/url]) doesn't even mention anti-Christian text in the Talmud.
2) If the Talmud were refutting Christian theology, would you hold that polemic attacks in general are inappropriate? Couldn't Christian polemical works be considered "anti-" whatever their subjects were?
3) If I believed that the Jews held to the worst anti-Christian interpretation of the Talmud, would I then be justified in ignoring or discounting their recent persecution in the Middle East? Should I be silent about the various calumnies against Judaism that have been taught to Arab youth? Would it be justified to malign Jews by propogating conspiracy theories like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion/"]link[/url])?

[hierochloe]

I'm inclined to think:

Israel is guilty.
Palestine is guilty.
One's guilt does not nullify the other's guilt. Both sides should accept the blame and consequences respectively. Anything else is just finger-pointing, which generally solves nothing.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='998198' date='Jun 6 2006, 02:33 AM']
I've got a few responses to this comment.

1) The "Talmudic Jews" generally reject the idea that the alleged references discuss Christianity's Jesus. ([url="http://talmud.faithweb.com/"]link[/url]). The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on the Talmud ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14435b.htm"]link[/url]) doesn't even mention anti-Christian text in the Talmud.
2) If the Talmud were refutting Christian theology, would you hold that polemic attacks in general are inappropriate? Couldn't Christian polemical works be considered "anti-" whatever their subjects were?
3) If I believed that the Jews held to the worst anti-Christian interpretation of the Talmud, would I then be justified in ignoring or discounting their recent persecution in the Middle East? Should I be silent about the various calumnies against Judaism that have been taught to Arab youth? Would it be justified to malign Jews by propogating conspiracy theories like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion/"]link[/url])?
[/quote]


1. If such refrences in the Talmud about Jesus, Mary, and christianity are true (which for this part of the argument we will assume that they are) of course they Jews would deny it. Now, that being said, i strongly believe that most Jews DO NOT know anything about what the talmud actually teaches about christianity, and Jesus, especially because of the liberalism of most Jews.
2. the difference is that Christian works are True. Jewish works are not.
3. No you would not. but you would question other things about them. Do they belong in the middle east? Frankly, i believe they do not, but i also believe that Christains should tolerate the jews (to an extent) because of our mercy for them (pope Innocent III agrees with me).what anti- Jewishs Calumnies do you speak of? From what i understand the protocols of the Elders of Zion has been proved a false, but the general idea remains true.

TO ADRESS THE TALMUD'S TEACHINGS:

please read this website: [url="http://www.talmudunmasked.com/"]http://www.talmudunmasked.com/[/url]

it is a book written by an Roman Catholic Priest, with an Ecclesiastical Imprimatur.

the Priest was quite qualified to write on the subject: [Author, Father I. B. Pranaitis]- Roman Catholic Priest; Master of Theology and Professor of the Hebrew Language at the Imperial Ecclesiastical Academy of the Roman Catholic Church in Old St. Petersburg.

[musturde]

[quote]
Unfortunately, it [i]is[/i] Muslims vs. Jews. This is part of a pattern of Jewish scapegoating that began long before the modern state of Israel came to being. There's always a religion-based excuse for Muslims to treat Jews as sub-human. Current members of Hamas even quote the Quran where it dehumanizes Jews by referring to them as apes and pigs ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism#Muslim_beliefs_that_certain_Jews_had_been_transformed_into_apes_and_pigs"]link[/url]).
[/quote]

So? If Hamas uses the Koran, what does that say? There are many countries who have made peace treaties with Israel, including Egypt and Jordan. The countries who have peace with Israel aren't out to kill them. Most Muslims have nothing against Jews who aren't from Israel btw.

[quote]
Agreed. The question is: to what extent are these moderate Muslims invited to contribute to public discourse in the Muslim world?[/quote]

Depends on which country they are in.

[quote]The Jewish/Israeli people never deserved collective guilt for what the Israelis have done. And, while Israel hasn't been 100% innocent, this has to be understood in the context of a nation fighting for its survival in a hostile and despotic neighborhood. Even today, the Iranian president is still calling for Israel's destruction.[/quote]
The fact that Israel randomly assasinates people (although in some cases they should) is why they have earned the title. This is why many countries blame Israel for bombings in their countries. Israels always the first to blame. I believe 1/10 times they are actually right. (this isn't such a good thing)

[quote]
Also, why claim that "Israel deserves the scapegoat title." Is this how we arrive at peace? We continue to dredge every sin of Israel in order to justify future inhumane behavior? This scenario of ratcheting up the violence is being played out in a similar way by Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites. There are some Iraqis who want violence to escalate. Their evils are used so that entire populations (e.g. Sunnis/Shiites) are scapegoated based on the evil acts of a few. Sunnis and Shiites of Iraq both believe that the other group "deserves the scapegoat title." [/quote]
They deserve it because they've earned it. The state of Israel, from the begining, has done stuff worthy of this title. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm saying they've earned it. Israel's past and present is not one of innocence.



[quote]The propensity to scapegoat your enemy to the point of dehumanizing them is not the path to peace.
The point of my post was not to portray Isrealis as having no guilt. It was to complete the picture of the situation for Jews in the Middle East--one that the Muslim propoganda machine conveniently hides. Throughout the Middle East, the Jews have lived as persecuted minorities, been forced to emigrate from their homes, or died because of Muslims who repeatedly persecute based on "collective guilt." That includes even those Jews who were against the zionist ideology. [/quote]
I'm more against Palestinians than Jews, but I don't think it's right to justify either sides actions. Muslims are scapegoated in the US for terrorist attacks. Israel is for attacks on the Middle East. I don't agree with it, however Israel, AS A STATE (compared to Muslims defined by religion) has earned that title.

[quote]
Muslim persecution of non-Muslims in the name of collective guilt is a broken record. It happened to Christian Arabs. It happened to Jewish Arabs. Most recently, the "small pockets of Islamic Extremism" have made their wrath felt by persecuting Danish--and even Europeans as a whole--collectively because of a few cartoons.
[/quote]
Yes, these acts are wrong.
[quote]
I would like to see a just resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Fifteen years ago, I had all the sympathy in the world for Palestinians, and none for the "evil Zionists." As time has progressed, I've seen the Israelis take the initiative to offer some significant concession (e.g. the withdrawal from Gaza, to name a big one), only to watch as Palestinian leaders snuffed the peace process. I can't blame the Palestinians for the behavior of their leaders; though I'm saddened that they felt the need to give Hamas control of their parliament.[/quote]
Hehe, the thing that bugs me is oversympathy for Palestinians. Jews, it's okay to an extent. However, Palestinians have done soo much terror to the countries they've inhabited. I like to be nonbiased though. I sympathize with both. Palestinians want all the land and Israel is not willing to give it up. Once more is given, Palestinians think it's because of their terrorist acts. This is not a good thing. The only solution is for them to live side by side... which is impossible.



[quote]
Amazingly, in the year 2006, the Palestinians are still arguing whether to officially recognize the state of Israel. For me (and I think for many who hope for peace), this moving backward is a complete disappointment.
I think we're in agreement. The problem is that people use the sins of the Israeli government as an excuse for all sorts of anti-semetic bigotry. And my main point above was not to exonerate the Isrealis; it was to show that Muslim propaganda against the Jews (i.e. portraying Jews and oppressors and Muslims as oppressed) is only a half-truth. The story of the Arab-Israeli conflict cannot be told without exposing how Muslim societies have negatively affected the Jewish people throughout history.
[/quote]
Theres always two sides of the story. I agree.


[quote]A number of years ago, I heard Hanan Ashrawi speak about the Palestinian-Isreali conflict. She mentioned (I'll paraphrase) that we shouldn't try to measure persecution, saying things like"the Jews suffered more during the Holocaust than the Palestinians under the State of Israel." We should agree that all persecution as a violation of human dignity, and work toward eradicating such transgressions. I hope I'm faithful to that viewpoint in my posts.
[/quote]
You do a good job of it.
[quote]
While I personally feel that Israeli's have sometimes failed to treat Palestinians with the dignity that they deserve, I believe that most of the criticism that Muslims throw at Israelis is blatantly hypocritical. For example: they can try to delegitimize the establishment of Israel as an "unlawful invasion"; but, then how would their rule for legitimacy go if they applied it to Mohammed? For example, Mohammed denied non-Muslims the full benefits of citizenship. What criterion justifies Muslim imperialist expansion that impacts (and kills) millions, yet rejects the establishment of the modern state of Israel?
[/quote]
Interesting. It depends on what Muslims. Palestinians would probably work by that.

[quote]Mustarde, I think the important thing for all parties to do is to look for excuses for peace and lifting up the cause of human dignity, and stop looking for ways to scapegoat and stereotype as a means to heighten conflict.
[/quote]
Of course, I agree. I'm trying to show that both sides are not innocent. I forgot there were many Palestinian sympathizers. Many Christians are blindly sided with Israel. Israel has done stuff to earn it blame, just as the Palestinians have done the same thing.

[quote name='hierochloe' post='998496' date='Jun 6 2006, 12:15 PM']
I'm inclined to think:

Israel is guilty.
Palestine is guilty.
One's guilt does not nullify the other's guilt. Both sides should accept the blame and consequences respectively. Anything else is just finger-pointing, which generally solves nothing.
[/quote]
exactly.

Edited June 7, 2006 by musturde

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Israel has no right to exist as a state. It was awarded to them, simply becuase of the Shoah. Sure the Shoah was bad, but worse things have happened. The Jews believe they had a monoply on pain, which is just not true. The whole movment of Zionism, and the idea that Israel should even be considered a state by Catholics has been condemned by Pope St. Pius X.

[quote]"We are unable to favor this [Zionist] movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. [b]The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore, we cannot recognize the Jewish people[/b].... If you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with priests and churches to baptize all of you". --Pope St. Pius X (1903- 1914) to Theodore Herzl[/quote]

[toledo_jesus]

Israel has as much right to exist as we (the US) do. We were colonial properties of the British Empire, and we rebelled. The Empire granted the land it controlled (Palestine) to the use of the Jewish Nation.

don't like it? Too bad, welcome to the last gasp of imperialism. legally binding, and backed up with guns.

[Desert Walker]

Amen. :

[musturde]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='1000329' date='Jun 8 2006, 09:21 AM']
Israel has as much right to exist as we (the US) do. We were colonial properties of the British Empire, and we rebelled. The Empire granted the land it controlled (Palestine) to the use of the Jewish Nation.

don't like it? Too bad, welcome to the last gasp of imperialism. legally binding, and backed up with guns.
[/quote]

You used the wrong analogy. We took land away from the Indians. The Jews took land away from the Palestinians. Both states were established wrongly. However, both states do exist.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

are you all going to ignore the What St. Pius X Said?


[quote]
"Although Christian piety tolerates the Jews . . . whose own fault commits them to [b]perpetual slavery[/b] . . . and allows them to continue with us (even though the Moors will not tolerate them), they must not be allowed to remain ungrateful to us in such a way as to repay us with contumely for favors and contempt for our familiarity. They are admitted to our familiarity only through our mercy; but they are to us dangerous as the insect in the apple, as the serpent in the breast * * * Since, therefore, they have already begun to gnaw like the rat, and to stink like the serpent, it is to our shame that the fire in our breast which is being eaten into by them, does not consume them * * * As they are reprobate slaves of the Lord, in whose death they evilly conspired (at least by the effect of the deed), let them acknowledge themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ has made free."(2)

(2) Ibid., p.694.[/quote]
-Innocent III


St. Pius X says the Jews have no right to control the land Sanctified by Christ. How can you just ignore that?

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1000378' date='Jun 8 2006, 08:32 AM']
are you all going to ignore the What St. Pius X Said?
-Innocent III
St. Pius X says the Jews have no right to control the land Sanctified by Christ. How can you just ignore that?
[/quote]

So we should let the Moslems control it?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1000494' date='Jun 8 2006, 01:21 PM']
So we should let the Moslems control it?
[/quote]


Hell no!

Moslems are better than Jews, in one way. They were not the chosen people, who then rejected God and his love, and they are not cursed like the Jews. But i see Islam as a barbaric relegion that is worse than the jews, when it comes to opression and murder. I think it should be Christian Land. obviously, as St. Pius X recognized, It is impossible for the Vatican or anyone else to stop the land from being the possesion of the Jews, and i see no real way to fix the situation.