Do you believe that Quebec should succede?

[Maria]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='999525' date='Jun 7 2006, 10:45 AM']
Alright... reading this is angering me a bit, mostly because there are some Canadians who are giving up on Quebec.

Quebec is the heartland of Canada. Passion, history and faith still reside there. They are on the cusp of a resurgence of faith.

For all those ignorants out there: Quebec, although seemingly "liberal" right now is at a turning point. The socialist separatist party is only TWO points ahead of the conservative party in federal politics in quebec right now... that is a HUGE shift.

Quebec does not truly want to separate. They want to be acknowledged as an important part in this country, which they are and always will be.

If you are Canadian, pray for Quebec. St. Peter says to return a curse with a blessing, so if you think you've been wronged... pray harder.

My family is anglophone-quebecois qui vient d'Irlande il y a longtemps. I love Quebec.

I also live in Ottawa, on the border of Quebec and Ontario.. so thanks to all those who'd love to see "a bloody civil war" which would kill my family.
[/quote]
I love Quebec, too. It's the cradle of faith in Canada. I really don't think that a land dedicated to God will stay away from Him that long. I love Quebec, I love Ville-Marie.
And yeah, conservatives have actually gotten in here, which is amazing.

Why do you say that we're 'on the cusp of a resurgence of faith', Matt? Is there anything in particular that you've noticed? I know that Turcotte's focus is all about 'proclaiming Jesus Christ today'. We have a lot of great people involved in all sorts of diocesan stuff, but honestly, compared to the population of our city, it's nothing. You know, compared to what other dioceses seem to be, based on the internet (humour intended), our diocese is different and I kind of like that. We're not heretical or anything, but we don't seem to have anyone into the militantly trad type stuff. We have some priests who can use prayers and (in my opinion) discipline, but we don't seem to have the inter-church debates that are so prominent on-line. People are ignorant, but they're willing to learn. It's not a condition for a youth group to be good that it must lead it's members towards loving Gregorian chant. TAC is wonderful, but it seems (from the little my brother has said) that just focussing too much on trying to reform abuses is almost a problematic mentality. That's really what it is, I think. It's relatively hard to find as a common mentality, in my diocese, the idea of trying to reform. Our mentality is more of trying to form people in the faith. It somehow seems more focussed on God and less in reaction. Sure there are some abuses, and that can be annoying, but really, a perfectly performed liturgy isn't the be all and end all of our life.
Somehow I think the mentality of trying to reform actually makes people more annoyed at abuses, so that they end up focuses less on God. Abuses would always bother me slightly, at least the ones that were a big difference, but that has really grown since I've started frequenting the internet. I have a better idea of what is allowed and what isn't, a better sense of the flow of the liturgy. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except that now I tend to focus more on the liturgy than on the point of the liturgy. And that's disordered, especially since I don't have any influence over the liturgy. Sometimes, you just have to realize that, relatively speaking, it's not that important.
Somewhat similarly, before we were involved in anything diocesan, we had a rather low opinion of Turcotte. But now, believe it or not, I respect him. He does celebrate funerals for public figures who have disgraced the name of Catholic (e.g., most of our politicians from Montreal). He doesn’t discipline noticeably. But he forms those in his charge. And the less you look at him from far away, and the closer you get to what he’s actually doing, the more you respect him.

Sorry for the hijack… I was just thinking things out that have been at the back of my mind.

[jgirl]

[quote name='Tata126' post='996705' date='Jun 4 2006, 08:16 PM']
When I went to Quebec, I noticed that most of the people I talked to said they were Catholic, but never went to Mass and didn't really know what the Church teaches, and sort of thought that all religions were equal, but still identified themselves as Catholic just because they were raised that way. That doesn't seem like very strong Catholicism. But, you know, that has nothing to do with whether Quebec should secede. Canadians are sort of an odd breed anyway. If Hillary becomes president, I might move to Canada just to be somewhere where if the government's run by liberals, at least it won't be powerful enough to affect me.
[/quote]
I was just up there and noticed the same thing. Most of the people at both of the Masses we went to were Anglophones flipping through the "Prions en Eglise" book like they were lost. We ran into some Missionaries of Charity Sisters in Louiseville, and they asked us to pray for the Church in Quebec. One of the Sisters said the diocese was closing and selling lots of the parishes.

As for the secession, I don't think they should do it. It seems like cutting Montreal and the tourist tax dollars from Quebec would not bode well for Canada, and it doesn't seem like the province-country would have enough to survive either. It seems like it would be lose-lose, but that's coming from an American.

The one thing we did notice besides the Churches being pretty empty was that in Ontario there are tons of Canadian flags. When we were driving the Chemin du Roy, we hardly saw any Canadian flags, but lots of provincial flags.

[God Conquers]

[quote name='Maria' post='1007994' date='Jun 18 2006, 09:11 PM']
I love Quebec, too. It's the cradle of faith in Canada. I really don't think that a land dedicated to God will stay away from Him that long. I love Quebec, I love Ville-Marie.
And yeah, conservatives have actually gotten in here, which is amazing.

Why do you say that we're 'on the cusp of a resurgence of faith', Matt? Is there anything in particular that you've noticed? I know that Turcotte's focus is all about 'proclaiming Jesus Christ today'. We have a lot of great people involved in all sorts of diocesan stuff, but honestly, compared to the population of our city, it's nothing. You know, compared to what other dioceses seem to be, based on the internet (humour intended), our diocese is different and I kind of like that. We're not heretical or anything, but we don't seem to have anyone into the militantly trad type stuff. We have some priests who can use prayers and (in my opinion) discipline, but we don't seem to have the inter-church debates that are so prominent on-line. People are ignorant, but they're willing to learn. It's not a condition for a youth group to be good that it must lead it's members towards loving Gregorian chant. TAC is wonderful, but it seems (from the little my brother has said) that just focussing too much on trying to reform abuses is almost a problematic mentality. That's really what it is, I think. It's relatively hard to find as a common mentality, in my diocese, the idea of trying to reform. Our mentality is more of trying to form people in the faith. It somehow seems more focussed on God and less in reaction. Sure there are some abuses, and that can be annoying, but really, a perfectly performed liturgy isn't the be all and end all of our life.
Somehow I think the mentality of trying to reform actually makes people more annoyed at abuses, so that they end up focuses less on God. Abuses would always bother me slightly, at least the ones that were a big difference, but that has really grown since I've started frequenting the internet. I have a better idea of what is allowed and what isn't, a better sense of the flow of the liturgy. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except that now I tend to focus more on the liturgy than on the point of the liturgy. And that's disordered, especially since I don't have any influence over the liturgy. Sometimes, you just have to realize that, relatively speaking, it's not that important.
Somewhat similarly, before we were involved in anything diocesan, we had a rather low opinion of Turcotte. But now, believe it or not, I respect him. He does celebrate funerals for public figures who have disgraced the name of Catholic (e.g., most of our politicians from Montreal). He doesn’t discipline noticeably. But he forms those in his charge. And the less you look at him from far away, and the closer you get to what he’s actually doing, the more you respect him.

Sorry for the hijack… I was just thinking things out that have been at the back of my mind.
[/quote]


Well, I'm speaking mostly of the province of Quebec and its capital, Quebec... and maybe Canada in general.

As for Montreal, I'm mostly unaware of the situation there, and am usually sadenned by the news I here from there. Last year especially I believe, respectfully that the cardinal made some incredibly bad decisions in shepherding the Church there, in particular the situation of the international Pro-Life conference which made us Catholics look like cowards.

On to Quebec...

Like you said, a "nation" dedicated to Christ at its inception (Samuel de Champlain's FIRST action on arriving was to PREACH THE GOSPEL to the native peoples) will not stay so far away for very long.

The coming of Cardinal Ouellette to the Primature of Canada signals a shift. There were something like 800 youth from the Diocese of Quebec at WYD this year... and unprecedented and incredible number. The youth movements there and in the surrounds are growing. The community of Marie Jeunesse is doing very well, with many new members every year taking vows to the religious life. There is a new sense of holiness it seems.

Most exciting is the Papal Visit and the International Eucharistic Congress in 2008 in Quebec City. These events are not chosen at random by the comittees and the popes, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. JPII recognized in Canada the next renewal of faith in NA (a statement he did for the US 12 years ago... coincidentally (or not) Canada is roughly 10 yrs behind the US Church in evangelization and catechesis).

SO...

I believe the tide is turning... slowly... very slowly... but that Christ is calling the people of Quebec back to Him and His Church. Those are only several concrete signs... but they are real signs.

Vive La Quebec Libre...dans la foi Catholique!

[Didacus]

1. In Canada, it is typical that the english speaking populace is Christian of various denominations while the French populace is mostly of Catholic origin.

2. Quebec is one of the most liberal, if not THE most liberal province of Canada.

3. Quebec is not only liberal, but it is also anti-catholic where if someone (anyone) affirms they follow the church will typically draw laughs and persistant ridicule.

4. Quebec is distinct in many ways, on this note, two things;


4.a) The question then rises "Should there be seperation on the account of being different?" Most french would object to this question claiming historical references and wars of the past and countless different things, however they will be, for the most part, unable to provide a proper reply.

4.b) There is a major mistake in the French-Canadien folklore of Quebec (and please keep in mind I am born in Quebec, I am french. J'aime ma patrie de tout mon coeur). This mistake lies in Quebec 'asking' for recongnition, when in reality, such a recongnition comes from within. If they want to preserve the culture (and with 'they' I mean those with whom I disagree) then it is up to Quebec to have children and raise them with the love of their culture - THIS AND THIS ALONE WILL GUARANTEE THE SURVIVAL OF THE CULTURE. Who gives a rat's butt who recongnizes our culture or not?


Malheureusement, ma patrie s'est meurtrie a travers les annees. Quel ironie que son coup-de-mort provient pas des anglais, ni des americains, mais d'elle-meme qui renie le future de ses enfants avec le divorce a volonter, l'avortement sans remords, la sexualiter sans limites. Ma patrie se trahit, se donnant a cette infame culture de la mort qui l'engloutie. La Mere Patrie, la France, ne fait guerre mieux.


J'en pleure souvent de l'intererieur.




La preuve empirique est flagrante et a deja ete mentionner dans ces textes; le Quebec possede le taux de naissance le plus bas des ameriques! Ceux et celles qui ferme la porte a la vie, l'ouvre a la mort - IL NE PEUT Y AVOIR DE MILIEU.

Ma patrie un jours, a moins qu'il y est changement tres rapidement, vas disparaitre. Elle seras une page d'histoire de ceux et celles, qui par leur respect de la vie, auront meriter l'heritage de ces terres si durement gagner par mes ancetres.

For this I say that Quebec should NOT seperate. Simply because they have become a haven for the culture of death. The culture of my home-land has become socially unsustainable and the vast majority of the 'enlightened' french-man and woman refuse by their own self-centered greed and lust, to see that the death of their culture is their own making.


[quote name='God Conquers' post='1008232' date='Jun 19 2006, 11:18 AM']

[snip]

The coming of Cardinal Ouellette to the Primature of Canada signals a shift. There were something like 800 youth from the Diocese of Quebec at WYD this year... and unprecedented and incredible number. The youth movements there and in the surrounds are growing. The community of Marie Jeunesse is doing very well, with many new members every year taking vows to the religious life. There is a new sense of holiness it seems.
[/quote]


Oh comme je pris que tu ai raison!
Oh, how I pray you're right!

Que mon Dieu vienne en aide a ce qui Le cherche et en on besoin!
May God comme to the aide of those who seek Him and need His presence!



[quote name='God Conquers' post='1008232' date='Jun 19 2006, 11:18 AM']


[snip]

Vive La Quebec Libre...dans la foi Catholique!
[/quote]

Ce cris percant qui resonne toujours!
This piercing cry that still resounds!

Liberter il auras que dans Dieu seul.
Liberty there shall be in God alone.

[quote name='God Conquers' post='999525' date='Jun 7 2006, 08:45 AM']

[snip]
For all those ignorants out there: Quebec, although seemingly "liberal" right now is at a turning point. The socialist separatist party is only TWO points ahead of the conservative party in federal politics in quebec right now... that is a HUGE shift.

Quebec does not truly want to separate. They want to be acknowledged as an important part in this country, which they are and always will be.

If you are Canadian, pray for Quebec. St. Peter says to return a curse with a blessing, so if you think you've been wronged... pray harder.

[snip]
[/quote]

Yes, it is a big shift. Howver, this is not due to people changing their minds. It is due to people becoming apathetic (which is none better than before) and from immigration (which pushes others to greater extremes).

I do pray for Quebec and my people. Quebec is the seat of my heart, and I could never change this, no matter how I much I try. I won't give up on Quebec, but I must be honest; things are genrerally 'not good'. Why, if a young couple dares advance the idea of getting married in a Catholic church, they get a 'talking to' from their parents!

Yes, there are signs of a reversal, but very little. A candle amidst a storm. Too little too late? I don't know. The Quebec of tomorrow will not ressemble theQuebec of today - not by a long shot.

Edited June 19, 2006 by Didacus

[DeoOptimoMaximo]

the right to secede is guaranteed in many US state constitutions and implicitly in our US Constitution. Don't know about Canadia... but if its the will of the people, make it so!

Secession is a peaceful, lawful answer when a government oversteps its authority. Any attempt to use force to keep a "state" within a union is contrary to the natural rights of mankind.

Deo Vindice


sorry if that sounded kinda hardline, I just believe that freedom is inherently God's gift to mankind, and governments should work towards upholding that end

[Didacus]

[quote name='DeoOptimoMaximo' post='1008270' date='Jun 19 2006, 12:16 PM']
the right to secede is guaranteed in many US state constitutions and implicitly in our US Constitution. Don't know about Canadia... but if its the will of the people, make it so!

Secession is a peaceful, lawful answer when a government oversteps its authority. Any attempt to use force to keep a "state" within a union is contrary to the natural rights of mankind.

Deo Vindice
sorry if that sounded kinda hardline, I just believe that freedom is inherently God's gift to mankind, and governments should work towards upholding that end
[/quote]

Si le Canada est divisible, le Quebec l'est aussi!

(If Canada is divisible, then Quebec is divisible also.)


That was the party line of the 'Partitionists' of Quebec who threatened to seperate from Quebec if Quebec would seperate from Canada. The Separatists reply; "Heck no Quebec isn't divisible!". It was one of the most passionate replies a Seperatist could make.


A lot of this question rest on emotional, not rational motivations on behalf of those who would want to seperate.

[Nathan]

[quote name='cappie' post='996843' date='Jun 4 2006, 09:17 PM']
The're still part of Canada ....there's still a country called Canada I thought it had become part of the US
[/quote]

That train's never late.

[Maria]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='1008232' date='Jun 19 2006, 01:18 PM']
As for Montreal, I'm mostly unaware of the situation there, and am usually sadenned by the news I here from there. Last year especially I believe, respectfully that the cardinal made some incredibly bad decisions in shepherding the Church there, in particular the situation of the international Pro-Life conference which made us Catholics look like cowards.
[/quote]
The thing that was supposed to be at the Oratory, but then they cancelled? Yeah, that made us mad, but that was the rector of the Oratory. How was the Cardinal involved?
[quote name='God Conquers' post='1008232' date='Jun 19 2006, 01:18 PM']
The coming of Cardinal Ouellette to the Primature of Canada signals a shift. There were something like 800 youth from the Diocese of Quebec at WYD this year... and unprecedented and incredible number. The youth movements there and in the surrounds are growing. The community of Marie Jeunesse is doing very well, with many new members every year taking vows to the religious life. There is a new sense of holiness it seems.
[/quote]
Actually... it was Montreal that sent about 800! Yea for Montreal!
[quote name='God Conquers' post='1008232' date='Jun 19 2006, 01:18 PM']
Most exciting is the Papal Visit and the International Eucharistic Congress in 2008 in Quebec City. These events are not chosen at random by the comittees and the popes, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. JPII recognized in Canada the next renewal of faith in NA (a statement he did for the US 12 years ago... coincidentally (or not) Canada is roughly 10 yrs behind the US Church in evangelization and catechesis).
[/quote]
Agreed!

[quote name='Didacus' post='1008250' date='Jun 19 2006, 01:46 PM']
Malheureusement, ma patrie s'est meurtrie a travers les annees. Quel ironie que son coup-de-mort provient pas des anglais, ni des americains, mais d'elle-meme qui renie le future de ses enfants avec le divorce a volonter, l'avortement sans remords, la sexualiter sans limites. Ma patrie se trahit, se donnant a cette infame culture de la mort qui l'engloutie. La Mere Patrie, la France, ne fait guerre mieux.
J'en pleure souvent de l'intererieur.
[/quote]
I know! It's sad and it's stupid and it's frustrating. If they want to preserve their culture, why don't they live it, instead of throwing it away? Why do they force everything to be in French, saying that will preserve their culture, when they've renounced their culture -- or everything good about it, and aren't having enough children in any case to preserve it. I wouldn't really be surprised if the majority of French-speakers in Quebec are immigrants.
I can't say that it is my culture. I don't particulary have a culture, in that sense. But I live in Quebec, I'm from Quebec, and it is, in a sense, my patrimoine.
They throw away their heritage and try to force 'it' on others, on whom they have become dependant.


The renewal is small, and Quebec will never be as it once was. And I mourn that. Yet, more and more, those who are Catholic have chosen Christ in a way that I do not think many did before. As our vicar general says, Catholism in Quebec used to be a religion of form, that did not touch hearts as it should have. Even with Georges Vanier... he had a bit of a Jansenistic mentality until Pauline convinced him to go to a retreat on the Sacred Heart given by a Jesuit in France.

[God Conquers]

I will always maintain that Quebec will never separate UNTIL it regains its faith. Without it, there is no substantial cultural force to sustain it.

Hopefully it will regain faith and then NOT separate... I'm just observing that there is no way it could at this time.

What is different about the people of the major cities of Quebec and the people of the major cities of the rest of the country culturally?

NADA.

Many of us speak french. To say there are substantial "national" differences is ridiculous without recourse to cult.

[heavenseeker]

i still think it would be funny it it just became its own country

[cmotherofpirl]

Le destin de Québec est à la hauteur des gens qui vivent là, permettent aux électeurs de décider.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jezic' post='997272' date='Jun 5 2006, 11:28 AM']Wouldn't it also cut Canada into two quite large pieces with a big chunk missing in the middle? That would look funny on a map.[/quote]


Hey...the upper penninsula of michigan used to be ohio. So ohio had 2 parts seperated by michigan...that was kind of wierd. The 2 states almost went to war with each other over what was known as the "toledo strip" (the very northern part of modern day Ohio). Michigan believed it should be part of michigan and Ohio believed it belonged to them...there was a treaty and the upper peninsula ended up being michigan's while the "toledo strip" was given to ohio.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1000876' date='Jun 8 2006, 08:55 PM']Part of the humor was that Canadians would never actually have a bloody civil war over this.[/quote]

Nah, they'll just have a big hockey fight in game 7 of the Stanley Cup to the biggest ratings in CBC history (with a Don Cherry vs. Chretain (sp?) UFC fight between periods) - just a question of who will be taking on the Habs, eh?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1010238' date='Jun 21 2006, 11:37 PM']Le destin de Québec est à la hauteur des gens qui vivent là, permettent aux électeurs de décider.[/quote]
La majorité n'est pas le meilleur in touts cas.

[Farsight one]

I say, yes, they should secede.

...and then Canada should invade and force them to be nice to people that don't speak French.