do you believe in religious freedom?

[Aloysius]

you see why discussions of this type are banned on phatmass? you see? jnorm has just discovered that catholics throw gernades at protestant missionaries.

jnorm: let me let you in on a little secret about this traditionalists. a lot of times they hold a lot of intellectual reasons why a Catholic state should enforce Catholicism as the one true religion, but other than that they're generally harmless. they often even have protestant friends. they don't go around killing people saying they're heretics. Jesuits especially don't... there are barely even any Jesuits left anymore who believe fully in what the Catholic Church teaches. they're certainly not out there throwing gernades for what the Church teaches, in any country (fyi, the church does not teach that anyone should be throwing gernades at anyone based upon their religion anyway )

most likely if your minister friend encountered a jesuit with a gernade, that jesuit was a part of a movement that the Vatican refers to as heretical: "liberation theology", basically reducing all Catholicism and Christianity to being a class struggle and therefore joining up with revolutionary gorilla military groups. see Cardinal Arinze's critique of liberation theology here: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...eration_en.html[/url]

Anyway, Christ did not say to judge by the number of fruits, but by the quality of fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruit; but He says nothing of how much fruit it can produce. That said: worldwide the Catholic Church is growing in numbers, very rapidly in Africa and Asia; mainstream protestantism worldwide is on the decline; and the fastest growing group that claims to follow a certain "Jesus Christ" is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. whether or not any denomination is growing faster than any other is besides the point.

There are four signs that a Christian Church is the Church Jesus Christ founded, none of which is the rate of it's growth. first it must be one, unified. the more unified a church is in its belief, the more likely it is that it was founded by Christ who prayed that his Church experience the same oneness of essence that He and the Father experience (that's absolute consubstantiality, no diversity of opinion included even on the so-called "non-essentials"). second that it's universal; so while numbers don't mean anything, Christ did institute a rule about location, location, location: that His Church would go to the ends of the earth. Catholicism is everywhere throughout the whole world, protestantism is mainly centered in the United States with missionaries scattered in different areas but you can't really find them everywhere. you got then your holiness and your apostolic succession.

anyway, like i said, no one's going around killing anyone over anything. the question is whether we believe it be a right that governments must respect that anyone get to choose to believe or do anything. God sure as heckfire didn't command ancient israel to observe a right to choose in belief and worship. but just because you don't believe people necessarily have this right to choose how to worship God (as if all "worship" were equally pleasing to Him) does not mean we must execute people of other belief systems.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='998200' date='Jun 6 2006, 12:48 AM']anyway, like i said, no one's going around killing anyone over anything. the question is whether we believe it be a right that governments must respect that anyone get to choose to believe or do anything. God sure as heckfire didn't command ancient israel to observe a right to choose in belief and worship. but just because you don't believe people necessarily have this right to choose how to worship God (as if all "worship" were equally pleasing to Him) does not mean we must execute people of other belief systems.
[/quote]

Well said. Which is why there is a difference between Religious Liberty and Religious Tolerance regardless of what you believe in regard to it's Liberty. No person can be forced to believe something other than what they do. Because then it wouldn't be a true faith. But just because a person cannot be required to believe something other than what they do, this does not mean that they should be allowed to parade their heretical beliefs in front of true believers. Error has no public rights, this does not equal forbidding a person from privately practicing whatever it is they want to practice.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I had a spiritual confrence sort of thing with a jesuit. he's cool, and iv'e never seen him with a grenade...

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='998851' date='Jun 6 2006, 04:39 PM']
I had a spiritual confrence sort of thing with a jesuit. he's cool, and iv'e never seen him with a grenade...
[/quote]




Were you in Brazil?


And why aren't you scared of going to a Roman Catholic country knowing that you are not Roman Catholic anymore?


You can't preach to them what you think is right for they might use force to shut you up.


For error has no right to be preached to the faithfull.



Right?







INLOVE Jnorm


This sounds so Old Testament to me.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='999759' date='Jun 7 2006, 03:30 PM']
Were you in Brazil?
And why aren't you scared of going to a Roman Catholic country knowing that you are not Roman Catholic anymore?
You can't preach to them what you think is right for they might use force to shut you up.
For error has no right to be preached to the faithfull.
Right?
INLOVE Jnorm
This sounds so Old Testament to me.
[/quote]

ummmm.... I've been a Roman Catholic my entire life, and still am practicing today.

are you some sort of Heretic?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='999835' date='Jun 7 2006, 04:27 PM']
ummmm.... I've been a Roman Catholic my entire life, and still am practicing today.

are you some sort of Heretic?
[/quote]
Be nice.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='999759' date='Jun 7 2006, 03:30 PM']
Were you in Brazil?
And why aren't you scared of going to a Roman Catholic country knowing that you are not Roman Catholic anymore?
You can't preach to them what you think is right for they might use force to shut you up.
For error has no right to be preached to the faithfull.
Right?
INLOVE Jnorm
This sounds so Old Testament to me.
[/quote]


If that was the case, it is not the Church forcing itself on people. It is people who are forcing themselves on others. The culture/mentality/civil authorities of those areas are the problem. Not the Church.

The whole liberation theology of south america is really wacked and goes against Catholic teachings.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[XIX]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='999835' date='Jun 7 2006, 03:27 PM']
ummmm.... I've been a Roman Catholic my entire life, and still am practicing today.

are you some sort of Heretic?
[/quote]
Did yu not say that you were leaving the Catholic Church?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='999844' date='Jun 7 2006, 05:45 PM']
Be nice.
[/quote]

sorry
[quote name='XIX' post='999891' date='Jun 7 2006, 07:42 PM']
Did yu not say that you were leaving the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

i did leave it. But Once Catholic, always catholic.

[CatholicCid]

EENS:
[quote name='CatholicCid' post='996727' date='Jun 4 2006, 07:48 PM']
Could you cite that source? I've been reading a book with quite a few chapters dedicated to St. Athanasius but the most I've seen is that he was exiled quite a few times... I skimmed through NewAdvent and I didn't see anything about excommunication either.

If you could eloborate a little more as well... I know St. Athanasius was a main speaker against Arianism, which of course wasn't a teaching of the Catholic Church, though parts of the Eastern Church were taking it as a belief before the 'trend' ended to say... Though that's if you are talking about that heresy
[/quote]

Tried to PM you to ask about it, but your PM Box is filled or so

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='999835' date='Jun 7 2006, 03:27 PM']
ummmm.... I've been a Roman Catholic my entire life, and still am practicing today.

are you some sort of Heretic?
[/quote]



If you are not in communion with Rome then you are no longer a Roman Catholic.


You are a follower of the Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.


Therefore I will call you a Lefebverenite.




As long as you are outside of Rome you can call me a heretic all you want for the truth is at the end of the day you are in the same boat I'm in.


Yupp at the end of the day you are a Protestant. You can deny it all you want but it's the truth.


You are a Protestant with "outdated" Roman Catholic beliefs.






INLOVE Jnorm


Also you have no clue what I am or what I believe. I may be more orthodox in theology than you. but you wouldn't know that now would you.

Also what good is it to follow Traditional Roman catholicism without the Pope? Whats the point? At least I like the last 2 Popes.......which were the only two popes I've known

Edited June 9, 2006 by jnorm888

[heavenseeker]

I would have to vote yes because I would hate it if someone would tell me that I couldn't practice my Catholic beliefs. Therefor they should have the equal right to practice their beliefs even if they are false.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='999856' date='Jun 7 2006, 04:07 PM']
If that was the case, it is not the Church forcing itself on people. It is people who are forcing themselves on others. The culture/mentality/civil authorities of those areas are the problem. Not the Church.

The whole liberation theology of south america is really wacked and goes against Catholic teachings.

God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]



I'm not worried about it.


I didn't hear anything like that so far from the Apostolic National Church of Brazil nor did I hear anything like that from the Assembly of God who are large in Brazil.



Maybe that Jesuit had something against Calvinist or Something but still......the idea of killer priests ain't cool. But I'm not scared.






INLOVE Jnorm

Edited June 9, 2006 by jnorm888

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='999982' date='Jun 7 2006, 09:23 PM']
EENS:
Tried to PM you to ask about it, but your PM Box is filled or so
[/quote]

[quote]Pope Liberius was exiled by Constantine's son Constantius, a semi-Arian, and in exile he was browbeaten by Arian bishops into signing a heretical Arian formula and St. Athanasius of Alexandria, the principal opponent of Arianism was excommunicated. When this was examined at Vatican I it was determined that Athanasius was not in fact excommunicated and that Liberius'Ariann creed was null and void since a statement made under duress was no statement at all.[/quote]



[quote name='jnorm888' post='1000920' date='Jun 8 2006, 08:40 PM']
If you are not in communion with Rome then you are no longer a Roman Catholic.
You are a follower of the Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.
Therefore I will call you a Lefebverenite.
As long as you are outside of Rome you can call me a heretic all you want for the truth is at the end of the day you are in the same boat I'm in.
Yupp at the end of the day you are a Protestant. You can deny it all you want but it's the truth.
You are a Protestant with "outdated" Roman Catholic beliefs.
INLOVE Jnorm
Also you have no clue what I am or what I believe. I may be more orthodox in theology than you. but you wouldn't know that now would you.

Also what good is it to follow Traditional Roman catholicism without the Pope? Whats the point? At least I like the last 2 Popes.......which were the only two popes I've known
[/quote]

Funny. what do we say about making assumptions? i am in full communion with Rome. i do not deny any Popes. Nor am I a Lefebvrite. Prove to me that i am excommunicated, and a protestant.
[quote]
In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.
[/quote]
-Ecclesia Dei

funny, my name ain't on that list.

also
[quote]
The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier form of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty.[/quote]
-monsignor Perl of the Ecclesia Dei commision

but ya see, ive never been to an SSPX mass.

you obviously do not know what you are talking about. i reject no Dogma of the Catholic Church Church, I recognize the raining Pope, and even attend the NO mass from time to time.



a love of the TLM, equals protestant?

i know you are a heretic, and that i deny no dogma, nor am i schismatic....

Edited June 9, 2006 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Winchester]

[quote]I would have to vote yes because I would hate it if someone would tell me that I couldn't practice my Catholic beliefs. Therefor they should have the equal right to practice their beliefs even if they are false.
[/quote]

What if they involve pedophilia, rape, murder, burning of widows or untouchables?

Do you support that?

I would hate for someone to tell me I couldn't practice my Catholic faith. Because I would have to disobey them, and that might make them unhappy, and if they had the force of law behind them, that would mean I would have to revolt, and being who I am, I would be victorious and then I would have to rule the nation, and that would be too much work.