do you believe in religious freedom?

[Resurrexi]

Jnorm, Catholicism has rights becuase it is Truth; but Muhammadeanism, Talmudism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Tribal Religions, Protestantism and Greek Orthodoxy have no rights because are false. So saying that religious freedom is good because Catholics may be in the same situation makes no sense because Catholicism has the right to be the only religion since it is the only true religion, and all other religions have no rights. It is moral not to allow false religions to exist becuase they are false, but it is gravely bad to not allow Catholicism to exist because Catholicism is the ONLY true religion.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='995509' date='Jun 2 2006, 01:30 PM']
Jnorm, Catholicism has rights becuase it is Truth; but Muhammadeanism, Talmudism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Tribal Religions, Protestantism and Greek Orthodoxy have no rights because are false. So saying that religious freedom is good because Catholics may be in the same situation makes no sense because Catholicism has the right to be the only religion since it is the only true religion, and all other religions have no rights. It is moral not to allow false religions to exist becuase they are false, but it is gravely bad to not allow Catholicism to exist because Catholicism is the ONLY true religion.
[/quote]

Meanwhile one of Pope John Paul 2's closest friends was the Dali Lama. I believe the Vatican still recgonizes the Buddhist Tibet as a nation.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='995509' date='Jun 2 2006, 01:30 PM']
Jnorm, Catholicism has rights becuase it is Truth; but Muhammadeanism, Talmudism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Tribal Religions, Protestantism and Greek Orthodoxy have no rights because are false. So saying that religious freedom is good because Catholics may be in the same situation makes no sense because Catholicism has the right to be the only religion since it is the only true religion, and all other religions have no rights. It is moral not to allow false religions to exist becuase they are false, but it is gravely bad to not allow Catholicism to exist because Catholicism is the ONLY true religion.
[/quote]
The problem is that while false religions are indeed bad and shouldn't even exist, we are talking about people, not just the religions. God gave free will, and it is not our place to be violating it.

Now, that does not give someone the license to practice a false religion. That offends God. However, it means that we are responsible for bringing that person to the truth. We cannot force them to believe. We must persuade them, but we can never violate their God given free will and force them to practice Catholicism.

Most people end up despising and falling away from religion because they were forced to believe it. However, if someone comes upon the choice to believe on their own, they have a true conversion of heart, and give themselves fully to it. Religious freedom is a plus for Catholicism because it ensures that the members of the body of Christ are truly devoted to him. However, with that comes the responsibility to teach the truth and persuade people to become Catholic if they are not. But the choice must always be theirs. It is simply our job to inform that choice so that it will be a choice for Jesus.

The idea is much like the whole reason for free will in the first place. Why didn't God just make us to do only good and not sin? Because then the good we did would be without love and meaning, we would only be doing it as robots. God hates sin, but he gives us the choice so that when we do choose Him, we are actually doing so in love and devotion.

So why don't we force everyone to be Catholic? Because they would be Catholic without actually BEING Catholic. If people are forced to be Catholic, we would lose alot of souls because of hatred for the Church.

[Franimus]

Not allowing other religions to at least privately evangelize, let alone practice, would be severe oppression. Apologetic literature and such should be readily available in areas where these are religions are evangelizing, however.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='995509' date='Jun 2 2006, 12:30 PM']
Jnorm, Catholicism has rights becuase it is Truth; but Muhammadeanism, Talmudism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Tribal Religions, Protestantism and Greek Orthodoxy have no rights because are false. So saying that religious freedom is good because Catholics may be in the same situation makes no sense because Catholicism has the right to be the only religion since it is the only true religion, and all other religions have no rights. It is moral not to allow false religions to exist becuase they are false, but it is gravely bad to not allow Catholicism to exist because Catholicism is the ONLY true religion.
[/quote]



I would say "truth" exist within your primative history.



But such talk won't get you anywhere with Protestants like myself. Nor will it get you anywhere with the Orthodox.


Nor will it make Roman christians in China and the Middle East have religious freedom.

Such a view will have a hard time surviving in this post modern age. Most likely it will fade in the background.


But if that is the mode you are stuck on then you must accept the backlash or consequences for such a view.






INLOVE Jnorm

That view didn't save France, Cuba, or North Africa.


P.S. "Truth works, so if it doesn't work then how can it be true"?

[Jnorm888]

How will you handle naturalism?



Isn't that a religion too? It seems to be the Religion of Europe and America more and more.




If you push that arguement on them like you did me then they will pull the Copernicus and Galileo card on you.


So what will that do to your truth? You may still believe in your arguement but most of the world will ignore you.




For the truth wasn't what you thought it was and it can be seen by anyone with a telescope.










INLOVE Jnorm


Rome can change according to her present situation in the World. She has in the past and I'm sure she will in the future.

Edited June 2, 2006 by jnorm888

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i reject relegious freedom. for my reasoning just read Open letters to Confused Catholics! lol.


i do believe however that if this country ever became a "Catholic" country that Relegious tolerance should be allowed.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Franimus' post='995366' date='Jun 2 2006, 04:34 AM']
Actually, this is exactly the place for you to debate it...
[/quote]

Okay, I'll post some stuff in just a bit.

If I get in trouble for arguing against this it's your fault! : j/k

[Resurrexi]

[quote] Not allowing other religions to at least privately evangelize, let alone practice, would be severe oppression. [/quote]

no it wouldnt be sever oppression, it would be the protection of the Truth. And even if it were so called "severe oppression" does it matter? Severe oppression is fine if it is to protect the Truth (I'm not defending Hitler here, by the way: you should never kill anyone because of their race, ethnicity, social status or medical condition; though buring people at the stake for being UNREPENTANT heretics is fine).

[quote]But such talk won't get you anywhere with Protestants like myself. Nor will it get you anywhere with the Orthodox.[/quote]

well, I'm debating, not trying to convert as I'm typing this post.

[quote]Nor will it make Roman christians in China and the Middle East have religious freedom.[/quote]

Please do not refer to the Catholic Religion as the "Roman Religion". Roman is an exceptable term to use for describing the Roman Tradition of the Church as distinct from the Eastern Tradition, but the term you should have used in your post was "Catholic", not "Roman". And, by the way, you should never compromise the Truth, even to help others, though I do firmly believe Catholics in the Orient and in the Holy Land do need much help.

[quote]Such a view will have a hard time surviving in this post modern age. Most likely it will fade in the background.[/quote]

well, Catholicism itself has a hard time surviving in this "post modern age" because it is not of this world and must not change with time, for it exists outside of time. The same must be said for the teachigns of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And quite frankly my dear, I dont give a beaver dam if my views seem outdated. Moreover, the beliefs of the members of the One True Religion will never fade into the background, though one day they may appear to have faded.

[quote]But if that is the mode you are stuck on then you must accept the backlash or consequences for such a view.[/quote]

I'd rather be persecuted for my beliefs than reject them any day.

[quote]If you push that arguement on them like you did me then they will pull the Copernicus and Galileo card on you.[/quote]

Don't care, Galileo was wrong anyway.

[quote]So what will that do to your truth? You may still believe in your arguement but most of the world will ignore you.[/quote]

There will be a day when most of the world will ignore the Truth, and if they choose to deny it, then it's their loss. The Truth is the Truth, even if only a few still believe it. Oh, and by the way, the teachings of the Catholic Church are not "my truth", they are "[i]the[/i] Truth"


[quote]For the truth wasn't what you thought it was and it can be seen by anyone with a telescope.[/quote]

The Truth is what the Church thinks it is for God has revealed the Truth to His Church. And, by the way, you cannot see that the Earth revolves around the sun by looking through a telescope, for the sun revolves around the Earth.

[quote]Rome can change according to her present situation in the World. She has in the past and I'm sure she will in the future.[/quote]

the Catholic Church can not change because, as I have stated, she is not of this world or age, she is of Heaven. She has not in the past and will never do so in the future.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='995973' date='Jun 3 2006, 12:14 AM']for the sun revolves around the Earth.
[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm still studying this issue. But I think you just opened a can of worms that really should be left for another thread.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='996094' date='Jun 3 2006, 12:19 PM']
I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm still studying this issue. But I think you just opened a can of worms that really should be left for another thread.
[/quote]


yeah.....


to adress evangelization of relegions deemed to be incorrect: We as Catholics believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which no one at all is saved. To allow someone to lead someone away from their only shot to Heaven should be considered spiritual murder (the murder of a person is bad enough, but at least that person can enter heaven, where as someone who leaves the church only has the chance of BOD or BOB). It also creates scandal to allow other's to faslely evangelize. If truth is so important we must protect it, and not allow others to lead the people away.

for those of you who speak of Human dignity i suggest you read this:

[quote]A little theology will help us toward a proper understanding of the spirit in which this declaration was drawn up. The initial--and, in fact, new--argument was based on the freedom of every man to practice inwardly and outwardly the religion of his choice, on the basis of “the dignity of the human person.” In this view, liberty is based on dignity, which gives it its raison d’être. Man can hold any error whatever in the name of his dignity.

This is putting the cart before the horse. For whoever clings to error loses his dignity and can no longer build upon it. Rather, the foundation of liberty is truth, not dignity. "The truth will make you free," said Our Lord.

What is dignity? According to Catholic tradition, man derives dignity from his perfection, i.e, from his knowledge of the truth and his acquisition of the good. Man is worthy of respect in accordance with his intention to obey God, not in accordance with his errors, which will inevitably lead to sin. When Eve the first sinner succumbed, she said, “The serpent deceived me.” Her sin and that of Adam led to the downfall of human dignity, from which we have suffered ever since.

We cannot then make the downfall the cause of liberty. On the contrary, adherence to truth and the love of God are the principles of authentic religious liberty, which we can define as the liberty to render to God the worship due to Him and to live according to His commandments.

If you have followed my argument, you see that religious liberty cannot be applied to false religions; it does not allow of being split up in this way; the only right that must be recognized by the state is that of the citizens to practice Christ's religion.[/quote]

A man who practices a false relegion has no dignity in the eyes of God, becuase dignity comes from Man's intention to do God's will, and therefore Man loses his dignity when his intention is not to obey God.

[quote]“Just as the civil power considers it right to protect citizens from the seductions of error, so it may also regulate and moderate the public expression of other forms of worship and defend its citizens against the diffusion of false doctrines which, in the judgment of the Church, endanger their eternal salvation.”[/quote]
-Cardinal Ottaviani

[desertwoman]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='996100' date='Jun 3 2006, 10:33 AM']
yeah.....
to adress evangelization of relegions deemed to be incorrect: We as Catholics believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which no one at all is saved. To allow someone to lead someone away from their only shot to Heaven should be considered spiritual murder (the murder of a person is bad enough, but at least that person can enter heaven, where as someone who leaves the church only has the chance of BOD or BOB). It also creates scandal to allow other's to faslely evangelize. If truth is so important we must protect it, and not allow others to lead the people away.

for those of you who speak of Human dignity i suggest you read this:
A man who practices a false relegion has no dignity in the eyes of God, becuase dignity comes from Man's intention to do God's will, and therefore Man loses his dignity when his intention is not to obey God.
-Cardinal Ottaviani
[/quote]


wow. I'm just speachless. No love, no compassion. This statment seems like it could have come from the time of the witchtrials of 400-1700.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='996116' date='Jun 3 2006, 01:34 PM']
wow. I'm just speachless. No love, no compassion. This statment seems like it could have come from the time of the witchtrials of 400-1700.
[/quote]


ohh come off it!


this is what the church has always thaught! is it really compassionate to let someone burn in hell because you didn't stick up for the Truth of God?

btw there were not continious witch trials from 400-1700.

[Fidei Defensor]

"The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power."

It's your complete disregard towards charity and love that helps people condemn themselves to hell. If they see no love coming from the Church that claims to be of God, then why in hell would they convert and become members?

We must love one another, or die.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

why is that you all assume i have no love? of course i have love. im not racking some heretic, and making them convert by force. i am simply saying i do not believe in relegious liberity (niether did Pius XI).