No Tomatoes Please! For What I'm About To

[M.SIGGA]

I like their pro-life platforms, that's about it. I see Rush as a little bit racist and there isn't enough space for me to write out all my feelings about Dubya.

Bush has made my parents a whole lot richer and they love him more than their own children.

[foundsheep]

I'm not saying anything against any race, but we do have to look at the facts. "Illegal aliens" is not a derogatory term. It is what they are. If you aren't legally supposed to be in the country then you are illegal; an alien is the term used for anyone who comes to America from a foriegn country to live. It's the term used by everyone from Average Joe to Mr. Head Politician, but if you would prefer "illegal immigrants" we'll go with that instead.

And saying they take jobs is not a cop out, either. I have personally witnessed on several occasions in two states where Mexicans had the jobs because they were willing to settle for less than Americans. I worked at a restaraunt and the entire kitchen was staffed with Mexicans. Immigration came in one day and loaded them all up and deported them. In a matter of six months, they were all back again with their old jobs. You couldn't get hired as kitchen staff unless all you wanted to do was make salad or slice tomatoes. Another instance was a group of Mexicans being hired on someone's farm because they settled for half the pay and lived in a run-down trailer at the edge of their employer's property so that they wouldn't have to get Green cards or anything.

I'm not saying that every Mexican is like that, because I've met a lot of legals also. And I know that there is a lot of laziness in American society, and there are those people that just want everything handed to them without lifting a finger. But to say that it doesn't happen and that saying something like this is a cop-out is untrue.

Breaking their backs or not is not really the point. The point is are they supposed to be breaking their backs here in the first place?

Is this whole mentality Christian? They are illegal to the Government. But should they be to you?

[PedroX]

How is it taking jobs, when there are few to no americans who want those jobs in the first place. I am a social worker, and have spent countless hours trying to help folks find work. There are many, many people who have an inflated idea of their job worthiness. If an undocumented immigrant wants a job at $5/hr and an American citizen refuses to work for less than $8/hr. Guess who gets the job. Of course, this leads into the whole livable wage can of worms, but I don't understand your arguement. Most conservatives I talk to believe firmly in market forces. In this case, the employment market dictates that undocumented workers can find work more quickly than others because of the kind of work and the pay they are willing to take. If I'm wrong, please explain because I am genuinely confused by this.

peace...

[Circle_Master]

try romans 13:1-5..

[Matty_boy]

First off, thank you frozencell for the backup.

I don't quite understand where people get the idea that all of these jobs that the "illegal immigrants" take are so unwanted by the American citizens. Sure, the senators might not want them, upper middle class America might not want them, but I sure want them, and I'm sure there is no shortage of legal US citizens who would want them. Not everyone has the chance to go to college and not everyone that does goes. I go to school in a town in Kansas that is one of the poorest in the country. Many of the adults haven't even finished highschool. What kind of jobs do they work? Manual labor. Miners, factory workers, refinery workers, etc. These are the "jobs that nobody wants", but they are the jobs that many people need to make a living.

Also, I've never gone into a job interview saying how much money I need to make. I have never refused $5/hour for anything. I usually take what the employer offers and prove to them that I am worth more. I'm very curious as to how many people have actually refuse to work for less than $8/hour. How many people have you met PEDROX that have been in need of a job that refused because the pay wasn't the best? I wouldn't mind working for the same wage, I'd just like to be working. I'm not the one who set the "standard" of pay for "illegal immigrants" and US citizens, and I hate that people are so greedy that they'll pay the lowest bidder who shouldn't even be in the country instead of paying what is worth the labor, which brings me to another point. I've worked for a couple of painting and construction companies which is very "back breaking" work, and I wouldn't call the 30 or so "illegal immigrants" I worked with "loyal" by any means. I'm not saying all illegals are disloyal, but they came into this country in a dishonest fashion. Why are they here? To make an honest living? It doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, the government has a system set up of allowing people to immigrate or come into the country which is especially important now for national security. It's not an unjust law to have to follow to enter our country. If we just let everyone come and go without keeping records of who is coming in and out, anyone could come in and do whatever they wanted, thus making the terrorist watch list obsolete. Heck, why don't we just get rid of airport security and police and even the military? ANARCHY IN THE USA!!!

And finally, Bush is way better than Clinton, and I like that he dislikes the UN. Clinton was very pro-death and even tried to make it illegal to sidewalk counsel in front of abortion centers. And he got re-elected!!! That scares me. I think it's good for the world's security and for morale that Sadaam is captured, but what ever happened to the chemical weapons? Even Donald Rumsfeld is questioning the validity of the invasion into Iraq. I support the troops very much, but I don't know that this war was the right thing for the right reasons. I have a lot of doubts about if the war wasn't something for Bush to prove to the world that he was tougher than they thought, especially after the "I will go to war with or without the UN." I hate the UN too, but his reasons for going to war seem kinda shady in retrospect.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

um, I've refused jobs that paid less than $10 an hour.

But I know my skills and the rate they are worth.

Now, that being said, I am truly blessed and fortunate in that currently my entire households income does not depend upon me (it has in the past).

If my entire household income did depend on me, you can bet I wouldn't be turning my nose up at minimum wage - if that was all I could find.

But for now I can afford the luxury of declining or accepting only those temporary jobs that I feel would be worth my time and skill-level.

But I have done my time, worked for tyrants for much less than my effort was worth, and worked two or more jobs at a time only to worry that the roof or the food on the table still wouldn't be there.

As a Mexican American (a card I don't like to play), I have actually turned down money from organizations like LULAC because I don't agree with their practices. I think they short change and cheapen Mexican Americans - but that's a whole 'nother thread. I believe that our immigration system here in America is important, and I believe that those wishing to enter our country should try to go through the system regardless of how flawed it is. But once they are here - whether legally or illegally - we have the responsibility to treat them with dignity just like every other human being.

Yes, they do take jobs that struggling Americans would be happy to take. But don't blame them - blame the employers that offer those jobs to them.

For morally unburdened employers, illegals are great! They can pay them less than minimum wage and pretty much know that these people will be there day in and day out. And, if they were so inclined (and alot are) they can pay them under the table so nothing ever need be on the precious books. Most American citizen won't work for less than minimum wage unless they absolutely have to and since we have this sense of entitlement here in the U.S., many employers know that the employees they have working for less than par pay won't be around too long, and assume that said employees are still looking for the better pay.

It's far more complicated than it seems.

But the bottom line is - we should treat each other with the greatest dignity and respect, regardless.

[PedroX]

From Matty Boy:

Furthermore, the government has a system set up of allowing people to immigrate or come into the country which is especially important now for national security. It's not an unjust law to have to follow to enter our country. If we just let everyone come and go without keeping records of who is coming in and out, anyone could come in and do whatever they wanted, thus making the terrorist watch list obsolete. Heck, why don't we just get rid of airport security and police and even the military? ANARCHY IN THE USA!!!

And finally, Bush is way better than Clinton, and I like that he dislikes the UN. Clinton was very pro-death and even tried to make it illegal to sidewalk counsel in front of abortion centers. And he got re-elected!!!

Did I argue for any of this? No, I simply asked questions that were genuine, and tried hard to put forth the fact that I was genuinely confused. As I said in my post:

Most conservatives I talk to believe firmly in market forces. In this case, the employment market dictates that undocumented workers can find work more quickly than others because of the kind of work and the pay they are willing to take. If I'm wrong, please explain because I am genuinely confused by this.

Also, in your reply you mention several manual labor jobs that to my view are all union or union type jobs that I assume all pay a livable wage. In your orginal post you referenced jobs such as a prep cook. There is a big difference in pay scale, stability and prestige in those jobs.

Lastly, I never argued for illegal immigration, or loosened immigration or mentioned immigration policy. I was focused on the "stealing jobs" mentality. I simply claimed that I didn't understand it. Thats all. My apologies, if I inadvertently touch a button for you.

Kilroy:

I do agree with you that the employers share a great part of the responsibility. I also agree (and apologize for implying otherwise) that you should not be forced to take a job that truly was beneath your skill/wage level. I was simply referring to the countless Americans who have little/no education and little/no experience and little/no skills who refuse to work for entry level wages. I have worked with litterally hundreds of such people. But, maybe we only have them here in the midwest? :D

peace...

[Matty_boy]

Very well said about human dignity

[jasJis]

I'll just say, that my 20 years of experience hiring people for construction jobs, I've seen both sides of the coins. It is hard to find American Citizens who are willing to do manual labor, even if it's a pre-requisite to a foreman or superintendent, or project manager position. I've never hired illegal aliens on purpose, but I love hiring legal aliens because of their work ethic, attitude, and availablility. And no, we don't pay minimum wage. A ditch digger will get $7-$8, to start, and most companies provide paid holidays, vacation, insurance, 401k, etc., etc., just like at any other type of job. Get a CDL licensce (which most companies will help you with training and/or re-imbursement) and you can add another $1 or $2 dollars.

I've seen non-english speaking men (and minority women) become Foremen and Superintendents making $45k++ in less then a five years. I've also fired college educated twits for incompetence at the basic ditch digging level. Don't tell me where you were born or what you know or what grade you completed. Show me, and you are paid for what you actually do, not what you can do. If you're willing to work and learn, you'll get the opportunity to prove it and you'll work and learn and be paid for your value. In this business, if you take advantage of what's made available to you, it only takes a year to have enough knowledge and experience to go to another company for more $$ or benefits. Exagerate what you know or do, and you're gone in a month.

[Matty_boy]

We don't really have a lot of unions in Texas as far as I know. If we do, it's not very visible. I go to school in Kansas, and Unions are everywhere.

[frozencell]

Is this whole mentality Christian? They are illegal to the Government. But should they be to you?

"Give to God what is God's, and give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's."

Last I checked, "Ceasar" said it was wrong.

[frozencell]

How is it taking jobs, when there are few to no americans who want those jobs in the first place. I am a social worker, and have spent countless hours trying to help folks find work. There are many, many people who have an inflated idea of their job worthiness. If an undocumented immigrant wants a job at $5/hr and an American citizen refuses to work for less than $8/hr. Guess who gets the job. Of course, this leads into the whole livable wage can of worms, but I don't understand your arguement. Most conservatives I talk to believe firmly in market forces. In this case, the employment market dictates that undocumented workers can find work more quickly than others because of the kind of work and the pay they are willing to take. If I'm wrong, please explain because I am genuinely confused by this.

peace...

You're right. But it's beside the point. It's ILLEGAL for them to work here, no matter the pay.

[Circle_Master]

"Give to God what is God's, and give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's."

Last I checked, "Ceasar" said it was wrong.

excellent post.

You can see it in Romans 13:1-5 very clearly.

It is broken down into a main statement

-Submit to higher authorities because God has appointed them (this refers to government - if you want to know why I can go into it, but no one really disputes this)

Reason #1 - because God has appointed them to punish you

Reason #2 - because God has appointed them to discourage evil and promote good (i.e. anarchy leads to ruin)

Reiteration - Do it for fear of Judgment, and also because of Conscious.

[frozencell]

I also think that the employers are partially to blame for the employment problem. And I do respect them as people and with human dignity. I just have a problem with the mentality of "equalrights with half the effort".

[Sojourner]

But once they are here - whether legally or illegally - we have the responsibility to treat them with dignity just like every other human being.

Werd.

It's all well and good to say it's illegal for undocumented immigrants to work here, but I've had immigration enforcement officials tell me that unless an employer is especially egregious in hiring illegal immigrants, workplace enforcement issues are pretty low on their priority list. So while that remains the case, we as a society are left with deciding how we will handle immigration.

Here in Indiana, we've seen a remarkable jump in our immigrant population from 1990 to 2000 -- some counties seeing increases as large as 500 percent. Hispanic immigrants are largely from Mexico but also from other Latin American countries. I've written stories about illegal immigration for newspapers I've worked for, and the jobs we're talking about are in areas such as housekeeping, kitchens, field labor, and meat-packing plants -- jobs that others (in Indiana, at least) aren't lining up to take, even with a poor economy. I've had economists tell me that our economy would be much worse off if it weren't for the immigrant population -- legal and otherwise. Keep in mind that many of these immigrants -- even the undocumented ones -- are paying taxes. However, these same people often find themselves in a position where they reap few of the benefits of paying these taxes.

Perhaps the biggest problem I see is a widespread lack of respect for immigrants, particularly for those who are undocumented. It's increasingly common to hear about people who take advantage of immigrants, either by playing on cultural differences between the immigrants' country of origin and the U.S., or by playing on the fact that undocumented immigrants are not likely to take abuses to the authorities for fear of being deported. I am disgusted by the abuses I've seen by those who take advantage of people in such an extraordinarily vulnerable position, and at the same time heartened to see others rising in defense of those who cannot defend themselves.

Peace,

Sojourner