Church Fathers quotes

[brendan1104]

Seems they condemn in a sense "baptisms" of "desire" and "blood":

St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:

[quote]“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. [b]Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’[/b] [John 3:5] [b]Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.[/b]”[/quote]

St. Gregory Nazianz, 381 AD:

[quote]“Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked. This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them. Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire. Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, [b]or some perfectly involuntary circumstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it…[/b]“If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? [b]I cannot see it. [/b] If you prefer, we will put it like this: [b]if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism[/b], then make the same judgment in regard to glory. You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory. Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?”[/quote]

St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:

[quote]“[b]For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful[/b]… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… [b]for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated[/b], though we have ten thousand virtues, [b]our portion will be none other than hell[/b], and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”[/quote]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Actually, a majority of them did. This view is echoed in Catholic theological writings in nearly every era of Church history. I know of writings from two of the Fathers you quoted that seem to contradict.
[quote][b]St. Ambrose of Milan[/b]
“But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of Baptism. Tell me now, what else is in us, if not will, if not desire? He, in very truth had this wish that, before he came to Italy, he should be initiated into the Church, and he indicated that he wanted to be baptized by me very soon, and that is why he thought I had to be called before everything else. Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly, because he asked for it, he obtained it.” [i](De Obitu Valentiniani [A.D. circa 380]).[/i][/quote]
[quote][b]St. Gregory of Nazianzus[/b]
“Even before he was of our fold, he was ours. His character made him one of us. For, as many of our own are not with us, whose life alienates them from the common body, so, many of those without are on our side, whose character anticipates their faith, and need only the name of that which indeed they possess. My father was one of these, an alien shoot, but inclined by his life towards us. He was so far advanced in self control, that he became at once most beloved and most modest, two qualities difficult to combine. What greater and more splendid testimony can there be to his justice than his exercise of a position second to none in the state, without enriching himself by a single farthing, although he saw everyone else casting the hands of Briareus upon the public funds, and swollen with ill-gotten gain? For thus do I term unrighteous wealth. Of his prudence this also is no slight proof, but in the course of my speech further details will be given. It was as a reward(a) for such conduct, I think, that he attained to the faith. How this came about, a matter too important to be passed over, I would now set forth.” [i](Oration 18, Article 6 [A.D. circa 370]).[/i]

“Now, since our Festival is of Baptism, and we must endure a little hardness with Him Who for our sake took form, and was baptized, and was crucified; let us speak about the different kinds of Baptism, that we may come out thence purified. Moses baptized but it was in water, and before that in the cloud and in the sea. This was typical as Paul saith; the Sea of the water, and the Cloud of the Spirit; the Manna, of the Bread of Life; the Drink, of the Divine Drink. John also baptized; but this was not like the baptism of the Jews, for it was not only in water, but also “unto repentance.” Still it was not wholly spiritual, for he does not add “And in the Spirit.” Jesus also baptized, but in the Spirit. This is the perfect Baptism. And how is He not God, if I may digress a little, by whom you too are made God? [b]I know also a Fourth Baptism—that by Martyrdom and blood[/b], which also Christ himself underwent:--and this one is far more august than all the others, inasmuch as it cannot be defiled by after-stains. Yes, and I know of a Fifth also, which is that of tears, and is much more laborious, received by him who washes his bed every night and his couch with tears; whose bruises stink through his wickedness; and who goeth mourning and of a sad countenance; who imitates the repentance of Manasseh and the humiliation of the Ninerites upon which God had mercy; who utters the words of the Publican in the Temple, and is justified rather than the stiff-necked Pharisee; who like the Canaanite woman bends down and asks for mercy and crumbs, the food of a dog that is very hungry.” [i](Oration 39, Article 17 [A.D. circa 370]).[/i][/quote]
Baptism of Desire is also taught by:

A hoard of Church Fathers, St. Augustine among them
The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
The Council of Trent
Numerous Popes
And every major Catholic catechism, including:

The Catechism of Thomas Aquinas
The Roman Catechism (Catechism of Trent)
The Baltimore Catechism
The Catechism of Pius X

[Theoketos]

[quote name='thedude' post='994784' date='Jun 1 2006, 03:17 PM']
Actually, a majority of them did. This view is echoed in Catholic theological writings in nearly every era of Church history. I know of writings from two of the Fathers you quoted that seem to contradict.
Baptism of Desire is also taught by:

A hoard of Church Fathers, St. Augustine among them
The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
The Council of Trent
Numerous Popes
And every major Catholic catechism, including:

The Catechism of Thomas Aquinas
The Roman Catechism (Catechism of Trent)
The Baltimore Catechism
The Catechism of Pius X
[/quote]

[img]http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/Theoketos/snownunown.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

There was a thread a while back in the QA that was very similar to this. I recall that Ambrose quote being one of the contra-baptism of desire quotations that the person was asking about. You might be interested in peeping the response.