Desire or Action?

[chris]

I would say that its my desire to go to mass that has formed my weekly habit.

[thessalonian]

That is a missing category in this topic. But the question is a valid one because there are many who go to Church out of habit. Though I am not sure we can judge them as going to Church just out of habbit as we have a tendancy to do so it is not a valid one. In all honesty I don't think anyone going JUST out of habbit would continue in the faith. Some have a simplier faith with less understanding and so their reasons for going to Church may not be as deep as our own. But are they really going just out of habbit? Or are we simply being judgemental?

Edited June 12, 2006 by thessalonian

[philothea]

The poll is a simple comparison, asked for a particular reason. I'm not trying to categorize anyone, or fit every person into a slot. Which is better, a or b? The existence of other options doesn't have anything to do with the question.

I got the answer I suspected, and I think it explains why I'm not liking phatmass too much lately...

[the 13th papist]

in this particular case, it is important to look at what what has been said by the church. although not attending mass on the sabath is considered a mortal sin, desiring to go to mass and not being able to (assuming there is a legitimate excuse) is not a sin. on the flip side, we are called as catholic to FULL participation in the mass- that means paying attention, singing, and being prayerful. i dont think it is possible to judge whether or not somebody's lack of desire to be at mass can be considered sinful. so, objectively, niether are sinful.

In general regards to moral theology, intent is a very very large part of the sinfulness of an act, but is not everthing. somethings, like abortion, are sinful and bad no matter what the intentions may be.

There is also no denying the many graces recieved by a person who goes to mass over a long period of time. after following and participating in the outward actions of the mass, eventually an inner change of heart may take place, drawing the person deeper and deeper into the mysteries of faith.

with all that said, i wold rather have somebody with the strong desire to do go to mass and do does every reasonable thing in his power to get to the eucharist but is unable over somebody who just shows up to mass out of habit.

the luke warm are spit out of the mouth

"vitues are positive habits"

God Bless

Edited June 13, 2006 by the 13th papist

[thessalonian]

[quote name='philothea' post='1004757' date='Jun 13 2006, 01:29 PM']
The poll is a simple comparison, asked for a particular reason. I'm not trying to categorize anyone, or fit every person into a slot. Which is better, a or b? The existence of other options doesn't have anything to do with the question.

I got the answer I suspected, and I think it explains why I'm not liking phatmass too much lately...
[/quote]


What's your point? Sounds like you are looking for contention.

[philothea]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1004852' date='Jun 13 2006, 03:19 PM']
What's your point? Sounds like you are looking for contention.
[/quote]
If by contention you mean I want to argue with someone, or cause a debate -- no, not at all. I wouldn't even have clarified if people weren't saying the poll needed other options.

I suppose it was snarky of me to comment on the result. I'm sorry if I upset anyone; it just made me sad.

[journeyman]

hey, habit is only ahead by a slim margin . . . let's go white wash some pharisees and see if we can't change that !!

[philothea]

[quote name='journeyman' post='1005110' date='Jun 13 2006, 09:04 PM']
hey, habit is only ahead by a slim margin . . . let's go white wash some pharisees and see if we can't change that !!
[/quote]





EXACTLY the verses I was thinking about!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

hrm. I don't think it's pharisaical to say going out of habit is better than desiring to go. Grace is received by going to Mass, whether they know it or not.

It is GOOD to desire to attend Mass (and be unable to go), but it is BETTER to actually be at Mass. God's grace is not dependent upon us (thank God) to flow. Yes, we must cooperate with it, but that's another debate. The person who goes to Mass has an opportunity to receive more grace than one who only desires to go but is not actually present.


I desire to help the poor, but if I do nothing but desire and not give what I can (even if it's only small) I'm not really helping. Whereas, if I give to the poor out of a sense of duty/habit, at least I am helping them.

Action is important.

[thessalonian]

Why is it a laughing matter that it is close. I don't think the people (me) who voted for habit think desire is unimportant and I find your pharassee (and the exactly) comment rather insulting. The either or mentality displayed is childish. If you are bothered by the vote take your polls elsewhere. I will not participate again in any of your polls. That someone is going out of habit does not mean they have no desire. This either or dichotomous thinking is protestant and what causes division as it clearly is here. You post a poll and somehow think it is better to desire to recieve Christ than to actually recieve him, body, blood, soul, and divinity. Spiritual communion is not equal to real communion. No mention of those who attending not being in a state of grace in your poll, which the pharasses were not. That is why they did not recieve Christ! What I see is judging those who may not be blessed with the knowledge that you have and are accountable for in having a greater desire to go to Mass. Stop judging those around you in Mass and go. MAKE IT A HABBIT!

Edited June 14, 2006 by thessalonian

[philothea]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1005357' date='Jun 14 2006, 05:25 AM']
hrm. I don't think it's pharisaical to say going out of habit is better than desiring to go. Grace is received by going to Mass, whether they know it or not.

It is GOOD to desire to attend Mass (and be unable to go), but it is BETTER to actually be at Mass. God's grace is not dependent upon us (thank God) to flow. Yes, we must cooperate with it, but that's another debate. The person who goes to Mass has an opportunity to receive more grace than one who only desires to go but is not actually present.
I desire to help the poor, but if I do nothing but desire and not give what I can (even if it's only small) I'm not really helping. Whereas, if I give to the poor out of a sense of duty/habit, at least I am helping them.

Action is important.
[/quote]
Again, the poll said [b]only[/b] out of habit. Only means [i]there is no other reason[/i] -- no belief in God. I'm sorry if people thought I was trying to get at something I'm not. I'm not in any way trying to denigrate going to mass because it's a habit. I'm trying to figure out what matters to people here more: appearance or intention?

I wasn't trying to ask about phatmassers and their personal choices, and whether they feel like they want to go to mass every time they do. That's a totally separate issue, and I don't set any store in "feelings" at all.

So seriously -- Fides, a lapsed Catholic, now atheist college student who has moved back into his parents house after graduation, and goes to mass with them because he always used to and it's easier than not going, is better off than a pious but house-bound old lady who is now unable to make it to church?

Edited June 14, 2006 by philothea

[philothea]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
Why is it a laughing matter that it is close. I don't think the people (me) who voted for habit think desire is unimportant and I find your pharassee (and the exactly) comment rather insulting. [/quote]
I'm sorry. It wasn't in reply to you. I kid around with journeyman a lot, and I found it funny that he posted the exact thing I was thinking... and apparently I've been unclear enough that there are a lot of things I could have been thinking!

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
The either or mentality displayed is childish. If you are bothered by the vote take your polls elsewhere. I will not participate again in any of your polls. [/quote]
Er, okay. Is there some way to know when "or" is an acceptable comparison?

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
That someone is going out of habit does not mean they have no desire.
[/quote]
The poll states "ONLY" out of habit, like I pointed out to Fides, and mentioned a few weeks ago too. Only means, you know, that there's nothing else.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
This either or dichotomous thinking is protestant and what causes division as it clearly is here.
[/quote]
?? I'm just asking people's opinions on one situation. I clearly stated in the first post that neither of these situations is ideal. I don't even know if there's a "right" answer. I kinda go back and forth on what I think. My emotions say one thing; logic says another. I wanted to get a feel for people's opinions.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
You post a poll and somehow think it is better to desire to recieve Christ than to actually recieve him, body, blood, soul, and divinity. Spiritual communion is not equal to real communion.[/quote]
What?? Where are you getting this from? I have never once said or thought anything like this.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1005379' date='Jun 14 2006, 06:22 AM']
No mention of those who attending not being in a state of grace in your poll, which the pharasses were not. That is why they did not recieve Christ! What I see is judging those who may not be blessed with the knowledge that you have and are accountable for in having a greater desire to go to Mass. Stop judging those around you in Mass and go. MAKE IT A HABBIT!
[/quote]
Sorry... this isn't about judging anyone, except maybe a niggling fear that "nonconforming" people as a whole are judged without question by a large portion of phatmass. You have jumped to some conclusions about me that are not accurate.

Again, I apologize if I've upset you. This wasn't meant to be a trick question. I wish I'd been able to phrase it more clearly, and not triggered this reaction to what you thought I said.

[Justified Saint]

Well, I can't speak for others, but it seems like you can't say [b]only[/b] out of habit. I realize people use this phrase a lot and I suspect what they mean by it, but I think it shows a misunderstanding of what they are talking about. Habitualization is a basic condition for living with other people in a community, as such it is value-neutral. If you want to talk about [b]thoughtless[/b] haibts, or [b]bad[/b] habits then you need to qualify it as such.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Justified Saint

[philothea]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1005500' date='Jun 14 2006, 10:25 AM']
Well, I can't speak for others, but it seems like you can't say [b]only[/b] out of habit. I realize people use this phrase a lot and I suspect what they mean by it, but I think it shows a misunderstanding of what they are talking about. Habitualization is a basic condition for living with other people in a community, as such it is value-neutral. If you want to talk about [b]thoughtless[/b] haibts, or [b]bad[/b] habits then you need to qualify it as such.
[/quote]
Actually, the value-neutral aspect of an established habit is [i]exactly[/i] why I chose that for the comparison. This isn't an easy question with one obviously right answer.

Obviously, "going to mass only to keep up the apperance of being religious" sounds rather biased. Same with, "only to see the cute altar server." The point was someone who doesn't believe in God, or the sacraments, or the efficacy of the mass, but goes for some other neutral reason. Habit seemed to fit.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='philothea' post='1005462' date='Jun 14 2006, 11:20 AM']
Again, the poll said [b]only[/b] out of habit. Only means [i]there is no other reason[/i] -- no belief in God. I'm sorry if people thought I was trying to get at something I'm not. I'm not in any way trying to denigrate going to mass because it's a habit. I'm trying to figure out what matters to people here more: appearance or intention?

I wasn't trying to ask about phatmassers and their personal choices, and whether they feel like they want to go to mass every time they do. That's a totally separate issue, and I don't set any store in "feelings" at all.[/quote]
I know it said "only" out of havit. My vote still remains the same. Grace is not dependent upon our feelings/desires/motivations, it flows regardless (and as I said, cooperation is another story that wasn't part of the polling options). And the person who is actually present at Mass has a better opportunity for grace than the person who desires to go but can't make it.

It is better to actually receive the Eucharist than to desire it without reception. Desire comes and goes, but habit presents a real opportunity for growth and conversion through the grace one receives by attending Mass. A person going "only" out of habit is still going-- and that still says something. Ask a priest if they'd rather every person going to Mass "only out habit" just stay home. No priest would say yes-- GOING (/action) provides opportunity and grace. Desire is good, but action is better... desire is meant to lead to action.

[quote]So seriously -- Fides, a lapsed Catholic, now atheist college student who has moved back into his parents house after graduation, and goes to mass with them because he always used to and it's easier than not going, is better off than a pious but house-bound old lady who is now unable to make it to church?[/quote]
Both are good. It is still good that the homebound woman desires to be at Mass (hey, maybe a priest could bring her communion, or go celebrate Mass for her at her home)... but the atheist at Mass receives grace for going to Mass and also receives the opportunity for conversion and change of heart through the Sacred Liturgy. But I'm not sure these cases are really comparable... would it be better for the woman to be able to go to Mass? Yes. Would it be better for the atheist to skip Mass? No. Just because he doesn't want to be there or whatever, does not negate the outpouring of grace that comes from the Mass and worshipping in community.