the one and only

[ironmonk]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='992545' date='May 29 2006, 09:15 PM']
so what about the year christ was born. Jesuss faith to worship God. the moment of his birth. what about before jesus was born when he was still with God in heaven. before Catholism was ever created before abraham HE WAS. and then he 'accidentally' forgot to mention catholicism?? i think worshiping God is Christianity. The religion. where few are gathered in His name, there he is. We are the church. i not saying Catholicism is wrong. im saying that saying by only Catholicism is wrong. Its obvious and sad thing is you know it. dont lie to yourself and dont be scared im trying to get you to lose your faith. im just saying open your heart to everything. im not trying to convert you. ACTUALLY i pray you stand firmer in your faith your beliefs your religion and in catholicism, but dont condemn me. am i wrong for saying you are wrong..i think so. but am i telling you the truth? I know i am because i believe it in my heart. Thats all.

as any christian i pray that all people all nations all tongues all denominations and all churches come together out of love. For God. that is the most important. its God vision.

Catholic or not. period. forever.
[/quote]


All who leave the first group are wrong to do so and do so to their own destruction. Christ and the Apostles preached the importance of unity... one faith... Not two, not three, not 35,000 +

The Apostle spoke some very strong words when he said "the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction" in 2 Peter 3.

"Destruction"... into the Gehenna, aka the lake of unquenchable fire to burn for eternity.

The seriousness of the correct teaching is a matter of life and death... and not the tempary life on earth. Out of ignorance those who are raised in error could be safe and will be judged based on their conscience and how they judge others... Having the truth of the Catholic Church and leaving it is spiritual suicide.




[b]John 14:16[/b]
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
[b]17 [/b] the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
[b]18 [/b] I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


[b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.


[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[b]19 [/b] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
[b]20 [/b] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."


[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"


[b]2 Timothy 3:14 [/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,


[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b] And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


[b]2 Peter 3:15[/b] And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
[b]16 [/b] speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
[b]17 [/b] Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.




[b]Ignatius of Antioch [/b]

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110])

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1). .

[b]Irenaeus [/b]

"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189])

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

[b]Augustine [/b]

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).



God Bless,
ironmonk

[quote name='journeyman' post='992525' date='May 29 2006, 08:39 PM']
Of interest - since it asserts the opposite of Catholic understanding of most time lines
[url="http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default.aspx/SperoWiki/BaptistChristianComparison.html"]From a Baptist Perspective[/url]
[/quote]

sad how some distort knowingly.

If they actually did the research, then they would have seen the quotes that show the Catholic Faith from the first century and no where will they find what they claim.

[rckllnknny]

lol.

quote..A denomination is a group that has broken off the original. So protestants are a denomiation that has left the Catholic Church.

no its not. Catholic is a denomination. i was talking about non-denominational anyways. which for the ssame reason wsnt on the timeline. non-denominational had to happen first befor everything else fell into denominations. which existed forever. its just the pure true form of christianity. Catholicism has been reshaped over the years as you have said with books being collected and choosing some and refusing others. the protestant is protesting mans creed. with is Catholicism. i never said this was anything wrong with praying a cetain way. i said it was never in the bible. thats all. an independant church base on scripture of Gods creed. im not trying to argue a point of view. i can see where you can be right too. im not trying to convert anyone anyway. like i said i pray you all become stronger Catholics. Catholic is a very organized church. it has also grown and manifested over time into something unexplainable and beautiful. i cant deny that and i wouldnt choose to. Christianity is a religion. And God is love which should be taught above all things. By all people. For all things. But we should have a better understanding of the fullness of truth as it grows. Everyone Always. I love you guys. And were all right. im trying to prove a point...sure. But a good pne. About love and respect and understanding. ....the 'passion' of OUR Christ. FOREVER.....

Edited May 30, 2006 by rckllnknny

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='992802' date='May 30 2006, 10:54 AM']
lol.

quote..A denomination is a group that has broken off the original. So protestants are a denomiation that has left the Catholic Church.

no its not. Catholic is a denomination. i was talking about non-denominational anyways. which for the ssame reason wsnt on the timeline. non-denominational had to happen first befor everything else fell into denominations. which existed forever. its just the pure true form of christianity. Catholicism has been reshaped over the years as you have said with books being collected and choosing some and refusing others. the protestant is protesting mans creed. with is Catholicism. i never said this was anything wrong with praying a cetain way. i said it was never in the bible. thats all. an independant church base on scripture of Gods creed. im not trying to argue a point of view. i can see where you can be right too. im not trying to convert anyone anyway. like i said i pray you all become stronger Catholics. Catholic is a very organized church. it has also grown and manifested over time into something unexplainable and beautiful. i cant deny that and i wouldnt choose to. Christianity is a religion. And God is love which should be taught above all things. By all people. For all things. But we should have a better understanding of the fullness of truth as it grows. Everyone Always. I love you guys. And were all right. im trying to prove a point...sure. But a good pne. About love and respect and understanding. ....the 'passion' of OUR Christ. FOREVER.....
[/quote]
The Catholic church is not a denomination, we didn't break off from anyone else, we are the church founded by Jesus. The Catholic Church decided with books are in the bible that you are reading. The bible came AFTER the Catholic Church. Non-denominational simply means a group that doesn't belong to any other the large groups: episcopalians, methodists, lutherans etc.

[ironmonk]

Catholicism is not a denomination.

Catholicism = pure unadulterated Christianity... you can see this is true by reading the writings of the first Christians... from as early as 70 AD.

We did not have the canon of the New Testament until 400 AD... The Catholic Church existed before the New Testament. The Catholic Church gave us the New Testament.

St. Augustine was one of the Bishops involved in the canonization of the New Testament... out of over 200 books, only 27 where chosen... all by Catholic Bishops.


Why don't you go to [url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url] and study up on the quotes, then go to [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url] and look them up for yourself.

What happened to you, I thought you were Catholic? Someone has filled your head with error... you can fix it by doing the research.

Why don't you do the research of the early Church writings from the first century?

Why are you caught up with an English word? The Apostles spoke Aramaic and the Scriptures where written in Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew, then to Latin, and then to English.

Instead of saying what you think happened and assuming what happened, come with writings from the first and second centuries that prove your point... there are none, but I want you to see for yourself, please try to find them.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/[/url]

Here's another resource:
[b]Roman Catholicism[/b]
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that [b][u]traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD[/u][/b]. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

"Roman Catholicism." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2006. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. 30 May 2006 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109700>.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='992802' date='May 30 2006, 09:54 AM']
lol.

quote..A denomination is a group that has broken off the original. So protestants are a denomiation that has left the Catholic Church.

no its not. Catholic is a denomination. i was talking about non-denominational anyways. which for the ssame reason wsnt on the timeline. non-denominational had to happen first befor everything else fell into denominations. which existed forever. its just the pure true form of christianity.
[/quote]

Please study history. The only way that non-denominational would be before Catholicism would be if there was a mass firing of all the bishops and replacement with new ones, thus breaking the line of apostolic succession. The only time I am aware of this happening was when the Anglican Church was founded. All Catholic bishops can trace their episcopal lineage back to the apostles. Can non-denominational say that (for that matter, does non-denominational even have bishops)?

[XIX]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='992802' date='May 30 2006, 08:54 AM']
im trying to prove a point...sure. But a good pne. About love and respect and understanding. ....the 'passion' of OUR Christ. FOREVER.....
[/quote]

[ironmonk]

Love is sacrifice.

Love demands truth.

Love demands correction.

To Love is to want someone to have the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth. To love is to want someone to go to Heaven. To love is to help them get there.

Showing someone their error is not a disrespect, but it is love.

To ignore someone's error is disrepect and shows a lack of love.

[Franimus]

[size=4]WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP SAYING THAT CATHOLICISM IS NOT A DENOMINATION?!?[/size]
It's actually heretical to say that Catholicism is not a "denomination."
From Dictionary.com:
de·nom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 25¢ and 45¢ denominations.
A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

Denomination merely means the name given to a group. Non-denominational, then, refers to a group that is nameless. Catholicism is equally a denomination just as is Protestantism, and all forms of both of those.
Now, I'm going to move into something that could contain a hint of my own opinion:
I think that it is true that the early Church was "non-denominational" since, as rc says, there were no separate denominations back then, and they did not have any need to name themselves. You all know as well as I do that the Christians back then did not name themselves Catholic right away. RC has proved his point, for reasons yet unknown, that the Bible does not state that Christ called the Church the "Catholic Church." This is not to say that the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ founded. Back to where I started this paragraph, the earliest Christians were non-denominational. When they started calling themselves Catholic, they became a denomination, but they were the only denomination, and non-denominational Christianity ceased. Years later, we get into the schisms and the breakoffs and such, and we see other denominations formed, until we get to where we are today.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Franimus' post='993701' date='May 31 2006, 04:31 PM']
[size=4]WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP SAYING THAT CATHOLICISM IS NOT A DENOMINATION?!?[/size]
It's actually heretical to say that Catholicism is not a "denomination."
From Dictionary.com:
de·nom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 25¢ and 45¢ denominations.
A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

Denomination merely means the name given to a group. Non-denominational, then, refers to a group that is nameless. Catholicism is equally a denomination just as is Protestantism, and all forms of both of those.
Now, I'm going to move into something that could contain a hint of my own opinion:
I think that it is true that the early Church was "non-denominational" since, as rc says, there were no separate denominations back then, and they did not have any need to name themselves. You all know as well as I do that the Christians back then did not name themselves Catholic right away. RC has proved his point, for reasons yet unknown, that the Bible does not state that Christ called the Church the "Catholic Church." This is not to say that the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ founded. Back to where I started this paragraph, the earliest Christians were non-denominational. When they started calling themselves Catholic, they became a denomination, but they were the only denomination, and non-denominational Christianity ceased. Years later, we get into the schisms and the breakoffs and such, and we see other denominations formed, until we get to where we are today.
[/quote]
i still would have to disagree.

[Franimus]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='993767' date='May 31 2006, 06:00 PM']
i still would have to disagree.
[/quote]
disagree with what?

[heavenseeker]

huh im sorry but whats going on?

[Franimus]

Sorry, I tend to get caught up in sticking to denotations, and ignoring connotations..
Zealous made me realize this:
zealous FUS (7:52:59 PM): george weigel "The Truth of Catholicism" page 38-39
zealous FUS (7:53:07 PM): title
zealous FUS (7:53:30 PM): why Catholicism is not a denomination and what that means
zealous FUS (7:53:45 PM): give me a sec to look over it
Franimus (7:54:01 PM): oaky
zealous FUS (7:54:02 PM): this was a required book for my intro to RED class
zealous FUS (7:56:44 PM): it says how american politics distort the word "denomination"
zealous FUS (7:57:35 PM): "What much of American Christianity means by 'denomination', though, is not what Catholicism means by 'Church'."
zealous FUS (7:59:51 PM): "There is little that is given or secure in a denomination; the denomination is constantly being remade by it's members. Christianity as denomination has no distinctive, fixed form, given to it by Christ; it adapts its form, its institutional structures, to the patterns of the age."
zealous FUS (8:03:29 PM): "A denomination is something we help create by joining it; according to Vatican II, however, the Church is a divinely instituted community into which we are incorperated by the sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist). Denominations have members like voluntary associations or clubs; the Church has members as a human body has arms and legs, fingers and toes."
zealous FUS (8:05:31 PM): "A denomination has moving boundaries, doctrinally and morally; the Church, according to Vatican II, is nourished by creeds and moral convictions that clearly establish its boundaries."

I agree with the book in that Catholicism is not a denomination as the connotation of "denomination" currently is. In the end, I just want to clarify that the the Church is a "denomination" by the dictionary definition, which is in an above post of mine. However, one must keep in mind that one should not speak of the Church as "just another Christian denomination", which it is not.

Franimus (8:06:44 PM): but i do agree with you in that sense
zealous FUS (8:07:29 PM): you're not agreeing with me brudda
zealous FUS (8:07:37 PM): you're aggreeing with the Church
zealous FUS (8:08:13 PM): if it was my beliefs I would be in a denomination

[journeyman]

historically (civil law) speaking, Christianity was a denomination of Judaism, called "the way" by some . . . recognized as such by Romans until the Jewish leaders protested that Christians were benefitting from the "toleration" of Jews established by treaty (60 something BC - in part because of support given to Ceasar) - between approximately 30 - 60 AD Christianity was betwixt and between - tolerated by Rome, even though no longer recognized as a subset of Judaism - Nero marks the demarcation where the Romans did a 180 and began to actively persecute Christians - which continued with various degrees of activity until Constantine (313 - Edict of Milan) ending finally with the edict of Theodosius and Gratian in 380 that all their subjects should profess the faith of the Bishops of Rome and Alexandria (Damasus was Bishop of Rome, Peter (Not that Peter - a successor to Athanasus)was Bishop in Alexandria)

[url="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodict.v.vii.xxvi.html"]Gratian evidently agreed in the important edict issued by his colleague Theodosius on Feb. 27, 380, from Thessalonica to the people of Constantinople. This remarkable document declared the desire of the emperors that all their subjects should profess the religion given by St. Peter to the Romans and now held by the pontiff Damasus, and Peter, bp. of Alexandria—that is to say, should confess the one deity and equal majesty of the three persons of the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and further, that they alone who hold this faith are to be called Catholics, and their places of meeting churches[/url]

The name "The Catholic Church" apparently dates to this decree. Catholics deny being a denomination because they are a church, the church established by Jesus and the Apostles; the church led by the successors of Peter. the Peter of whom Jesus said he was the rock upon which He would build His church, and later a Bishop of Rome.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Franimus' post='993865' date='May 31 2006, 05:48 PM']
disagree with what?
[/quote]
that the Catholic church is a denomination.

[Andreas E.]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='992551' date='May 29 2006, 06:27 PM']


The Church does say this... It is the FULLNESS OF TRUTH. as oppose to partial truth that you get from protestant denominations.

check out my signiture
[/quote]


I completely agree. And that from a reformed viewpoint. Yes, the protesant, reformed, non-denominational churches all have some of the Truth, but not all of it! Personally, I got this epiphany myself only a little while ago. There is so much richness of faith and devotion to God in the Catholic Church, I must say I missed out all these years. And to boot, people here have been able to give me scriptural (or reasons based thereon) for the number of dogmas I had a hard time with.