ban on kneeling

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[b]A Ban on Kneeling? Some Catholics Won't Stand for It[/b]
[i]By David Haldane, Times Staff Writer
May 28, 2006 [/i]

[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kneel28may28,0,7235402.story?coll=la-home-headlines"]SOURCE: Los Angeles Times[/url]

At a small Catholic church in Huntington Beach, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner?

Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.

Though told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday.

"Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, but we all just ignore him."

The debate is being played out in at least a dozen parishes nationwide.

Since at least the 7th century, Catholics have been kneeling after the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. "The faithful kneel … unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise," says Rome's book of instructions. Since then, some churches have been built without kneelers.

The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past they would like to leave behind.

At the center of the controversy is the church's concept of Christ, said Jesuit Father Lawrence J. Madden, director of the Georgetown Center for Liturgy at Georgetown University in Washington. It's a question raised in the bestselling book "The Da Vinci Code."

Because the earliest Christians viewed Jesus as God and man, Madden said, they generally stood during worship services to show reverence and equality. About the 7th century, however, Catholic theologians put more emphasis on Christ's divinity and introduced kneeling as the only appropriate posture at points in the Mass when God was believed to be present.

Things started to change in the 1960s, Madden said, when Vatican II began moving the church back to its earliest roots. What has ensued, he said, is the predictable struggle of an institution revising centuries of religious practices.

The argument over kneeling, Madden said, is "a signal of the division in the church between two camps: those who have caught the spirit of Vatican II, and those who are a bit suspicious. Because it's so visible, what happens at the Sunday worship event is a lightning rod for lots of issues."

One flashpoint involves the Agnus Dei. Traditionalists say the faithful must then fall to their knees in awe for several minutes, believing that the bread and wine are literally the body and blood of Christ.

Lesa Truxaw, the Orange Diocese director of worship, said Bishop Tod D. Brown banned kneeling because standing "reflects our human dignity. It's not that we think we're equal to God, but we recognize that we are made in the image and likeness of God."

Orange County parishioners are still allowed to kneel at other points in the Mass, including the Eucharistic prayers. Kneeling is optional as worshippers receive communion.

No less an authority than the pope is on record as favoring kneeling. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI last year, wrote in "The Spirit of the Liturgy," published in 2000, that the gesture, "comes from the Bible and the knowledge of God." He has not addressed the issue as pope.

American Catholic bishops have taken the opposite position. "Standing can be just as much an expression of respect for the coming of Christ," said Msgr. Anthony F. Sherman, a spokesman for the liturgy secretariat of the U.S. Bishops Committee on the Liturgy based in Washington.

That hasn't quieted critics.

"It's hard to understand why any bishop would prohibit his people from expressing reverence in the way they have done for centuries," said Helen Hull Hitchcock, a founder of the conservative Adoremus Society for the Renewal of Sacred Liturgy in St. Louis.

The controversy at St. Mary's by the Sea began to intensify late last year after Brown appointed Tran to lead the 1,500-family parish.

Tran took over following the retirement of the church's longtime pastor, who had offered a popular traditional Latin Mass.

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Tran's Mass reverted to the more modern English form practiced in most American churches, and hundreds of parishioners signed a petition in protest. Then, to pull the church into the modern era, the priest told members, they were not to kneel after the Agnus Dei.

Many refused to comply. "Not kneeling would be sinful," said Manuel Ruiz, 45, "because that is what I believe I should do."

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Mary Tripoli, 54, a former member of the parish council, was dismissed for her insistence on kneeling: "Standing may be reverence, but kneeling is adoration. It's the one thing that means Catholicism throughout the world. It's what sets us apart."

At least two altar boys, the parish altar servers coordinator and three members of the parish council have been dismissed from their duties for kneeling at the wrong time, according to parishioners.

Angered by the anti-kneeling edict, a group calling itself Save Saint Mary's began distributing leaflets calling for its return outside church each Sunday.

Tran responded in the church bulletin with a series of strident weekly statements condemning what he called "despising the authority of the local bishop" by refusing his orders to stand, and calling the disobedience a mortal sin, considered the worst kind of offense, usually reserved for acts such as murder.

Tran sent letters to 55 kneeling parishioners "inviting" them to leave the parish and the diocese for, among other things, "creating misleading confusion, division and chaos in the parish by intentional disobedience and opposition to the current liturgical norms."

Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the diocese supports Tran's view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. "That's Father Tran's interpretation, and he's the pastor," he said. "We stand behind Father Tran."

Recipients of Tran's banishment letter said they have declined his "invitation" to depart.

Kneeling, said Teri Carpentier, 50, is praying "with our bodies, not just our minds."

During a recent Saturday afternoon Mass, dozens of worshippers defiantly knelt after the Agnus Dei.

One who didn't was Winifred Mentzer, 84.

"I've been standing lately," she later said, "because I'm all the way up front, and I know that the priest is watching. But I'm kneeling in my heart."

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Tran's Mass reverted to the more modern English form practiced in most American churches, and hundreds of parishioners signed a petition in protest. Then, to pull the church into the modern era, the priest told members, they were not to kneel after the Agnus Dei.

Many refused to comply. "Not kneeling would be sinful," said Manuel Ruiz, 45, "because that is what I believe I should do."

ADVERTISEMENT
Mary Tripoli, 54, a former member of the parish council, was dismissed for her insistence on kneeling: "Standing may be reverence, but kneeling is adoration. It's the one thing that means Catholicism throughout the world. It's what sets us apart."

At least two altar boys, the parish altar servers coordinator and three members of the parish council have been dismissed from their duties for kneeling at the wrong time, according to parishioners.

Angered by the anti-kneeling edict, a group calling itself Save Saint Mary's began distributing leaflets calling for its return outside church each Sunday.

Tran responded in the church bulletin with a series of strident weekly statements condemning what he called "despising the authority of the local bishop" by refusing his orders to stand, and calling the disobedience a mortal sin, considered the worst kind of offense, usually reserved for acts such as murder.

Tran sent letters to 55 kneeling parishioners "inviting" them to leave the parish and the diocese for, among other things, "creating misleading confusion, division and chaos in the parish by intentional disobedience and opposition to the current liturgical norms."

Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the diocese supports Tran's view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. "That's Father Tran's interpretation, and he's the pastor," he said. "We stand behind Father Tran."

Recipients of Tran's banishment letter said they have declined his "invitation" to depart.

Kneeling, said Teri Carpentier, 50, is praying "with our bodies, not just our minds."

During a recent Saturday afternoon Mass, dozens of worshippers defiantly knelt after the Agnus Dei.

One who didn't was Winifred Mentzer, 84.

"I've been standing lately," she later said, "because I'm all the way up front, and I know that the priest is watching. But I'm kneeling in my heart."

[XIX]

What does the GIRM say?
[quote]20. The uniformity in standing, kneeling, or sitting to be observed by all taking part is a sign of the community and the unity of the assembly; it both expresses and fosters the spiritual attitude of those taking part. [49]
21. For the sake of uniformity in movement and posture, [b]the people should follow the directions given during the celebration by the deacon, the priest, or another minister.[/b] Unless other provision is made, at every Mass the people should stand from the beginning of the entrance song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel; while the gospel is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph. They should sit during the readings before the gospel and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the presentation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of silence after communion. [b]They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason. [/b]

[b]But it is up to the conference of bishops to adapt the actions and postures described in the Order of the Roman Mass to the customs of the people. [50] But the conference must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration.[/b]

22. Included among the external actions of the Mass are those of the priest going to the altar, of the faithful presenting the gifts, and their coming forward to receive communion. While the songs proper to these movements are being sung, they should be carried out becomingly in keeping with the norms prescribed for each. [/quote]
(GIRM 20-22; emphasis mine)
So if the priest explicitly tells you not to kneel during the Agnus Dei, you're kinda stuck with standing. The priests and the bishops should not go over the Vatican's head unless they are "corresponding to the meaning and the character of (the part after the Agnus Dei)." Standing when you utter "Lord, I am not worthy..." [i]clearly[/i] fails to capture the meaning of the moments before receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. I completely disagree with Father Tran's decision, but if I was at one his Masses, I'd probably stand. At least that's my understanding.
[quote]The argument over kneeling, Madden said, is "a signal of the division in the church between two camps: those who have caught the spirit of Vatican II, and those who are a bit suspicious. Because it's so visible, what happens at the Sunday worship event is a lightning rod for lots of issues."[/quote]
The term "Sunday worship event" is a red flag. I don't mean to rail on Protestants or anything, but we're Catholics. We celebrate [b]Mass.[/b] According to our faith, it is the most perfect form of prayer, the highest kind of "worship event." By calling it a "worship event," he infers that our Mass is just like one of the Protestant services. It's like playing in the Super Bowl and saying "hey, I'm playing football." He choice of words tells me that he does not want to identify himself as a Catholic (which is really really bad for V-II ecumenism, by the way.) Sadly, I think he's smart enough to realize that; until he does, I'll take anything he said with a grain of salt.

The division within the Catholic Church is caused by those who insist on rebelling against the Vatican.

[quote]No less an authority than the pope is on record as favoring kneeling. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI last year, wrote in "The Spirit of the Liturgy," published in 2000, that the gesture, "comes from the Bible and the knowledge of God." He has not addressed the issue as pope.[/quote]
So there ya go. The Church favors kneeling, as per the GIRM, and that doesn't figure to change under the current papacy.
[quote]Tran sent letters to 55 kneeling parishioners "inviting" them to leave the parish and the diocese for, among other things, "creating misleading confusion, division and chaos in the parish by intentional disobedience and opposition to the current liturgical norms."[/quote]
Tran is guilty of disobedience, whether it is intentional or not. The Church gives him NO authority to determine what is mortally sinful.
[quote]and calling the disobedience a mortal sin, considered the worst kind of offense, usually reserved for acts such as murder.[/quote]
Wow, can you say "n-a-i-v-e?" Wait until somebody tells this writer that intentional sexual fantasies can be mortally sinful.

Edited May 28, 2006 by XIX

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

everyone has laughed at the suggestion that kneeling can be a MORTAL SIN

SHALOM

[Socrates]

[quote name='MC IMaGiNaZUN' post='992069' date='May 28 2006, 07:08 PM']
everyone has laughed at the suggestion that kneeling can be a MORTAL SIN

SHALOM
[/quote]
I wonder if this priest also considers contraception a mortal sin? Or even abortion?
(Just out of idle curiosity) (Maybe he does, but something tells me he's probably much less publicly outspoken on those things)

SoCal Catholics!

[jezic]

There is a great need for prayer in this instance.

When things change in California there will be much healing to do. Pray for holy priests to arise in the seminary. They will need them as much as anyone to prevent millions of truly faithful Catholics from leaving.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

I have met many seminarians in and throughout California. The simple fact is, young men are more concerned with holiness then with political agendas. As someone who lives in California, i would say it IS NOT hopeless at all. however it may be portrayed as a liberal hippy orgy by traditionalists elsewhere.

Los Angeles is the largest archdiocese in the world as far as Catholic population. We must pray for priests not to only arise, but to have the courage and strength to peresevere in a seminary that isnt always about orthodoxy. So keep praying for us out here, we are terribly understaffed in the sacred ministries.

SHALOM

[musturde]

One part of this article thats not true is where it states that kneeling is "a thing of the past". During the earliest times, the Church used to stand as a sign of reverence. Also in some other cultures (who have some qualities more traditional than even the Tridentine Mass) they stand mostly instead of kneel.

[Franimus]

I very much agree with XIX, except where he says that Tran is guilty of disobedience. All that one is doing by declaring something to be a mortal sin is saying that it is of grave nature. In making this public statement, all who hear it now have knowledge of its gravity, and it is obviously a situation where most people (especially the adults) would commit the sin from their own free, unhindered, will. Also, it is not the act itself that Tran declares to be a mortal sin, but the fact that the parishioners are disobeying the pastor, and thus contributing to the disunity.

Maybe he already did this, but I think that Father Tran needs to more thoroughly explain the reasonings for standing instead of kneeling, as well as the need for unity.

[Fulton Sheen Warrior]

+JMJ+

The one thing I can't stand hearing from people is that "kneeling is old fashioned".

When did love, honor, and worship have an expiration date?

[Franimus]

Okay, this is really wierd.. but the morning after I read this thread (and made that last post of mine) I woke up, went to Mass at another parish, and then the priest didn't start the Lamb of God after the sign of peace, so everybody was still standing when he held the host up to say "This is Jesus." Some of the people slowly kneeled, but I stuck with the people who were right up front (I was in the back) and stayed standing.. Everybody kneeled right afterwards, though, when communion started being taken. I'll bet the parish normally kneels, but got confused at the omittance of the Lamb of God, but I was able to feel fine with standing.

[toledo_jesus]

how good to know I'm not the only one who has been 'invited to leave' a 'faith community' due to kneeling.