Birgitta Noel Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 Umm, well, glad you're not a rad-Trad anymore. But seriously heartbroken that you're rejecting Christ's Church entirely and passing up on the Eucharist and His immense mercy and grace that He wants to shower down on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='991542' date='May 27 2006, 03:17 PM'] in fact, i've left the church. but at least you don't have to put up with my rad tradiness. [/quote] Well sorry to hear that, on both accounts . Welcome back though. [quote name='Akalyte' post='991580' date='May 27 2006, 04:51 PM'] i knew this was going to happen..maybe phatmass should start being nicer to "rad trads". instead of treating them worse protestants and muslims. [/quote] hmm, that certainly would be a welcome change around here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted May 29, 2006 Author Share Posted May 29, 2006 SAVE TOOKIE WILLIAMS! PLEASE GO www.tookie.com NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION. DON'T LET A REPENTANT MAN DIE! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 Yep, though that was a long time ago I still stand by that decision. Not sure what that has to do with anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted May 29, 2006 Author Share Posted May 29, 2006 [b][size=5]Whether it is lawful to kill sinners?[/size][/b] [font="System"][size=4][color="#FF0000"]Objection 1[/color]. It would seem unlawful to kill men who have sinned. For our Lord in the parable (Matthew 13) forbade the uprooting of the cockle which denotes wicked men according to a gloss. Now whatever is forbidden by God is a sin. Therefore it is a sin to kill a sinner. [color="#FF0000"]Objection 2. [/color]Further, human justice is conformed to Divine justice. Now according to Divine justice sinners are kept back for repentance, according to Ezech. 33:11, "I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Therefore it seems altogether unjust to kill sinners. [color="#FF0000"]Objection 3.[/color] Further, it is not lawful, for any good end whatever, to do that which is evil in itself, according to Augustine (Contra Mendac. vii) and the Philosopher (Ethic. ii, 6). Now to kill a man is evil in itself, since we are bound to have charity towards all men, and "we wish our friends to live and to exist," according to Ethic. ix, 4. Therefore it is nowise lawful to kill a man who has sinned. [color="#FF0000"]On the contrary,[/color] It is written (Exodus 22:18): "Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live"; and (Psalm 100:8): "In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land." [color="#FF0000"]I answer that, [/color]As stated above (1), it is lawful to kill dumb animals, in so far as they are naturally directed to man's use, as the imperfect is directed to the perfect. Now every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part is naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we observe that if the health of the whole body demands the excision of a member, through its being decayed or infectious to the other members, it will be both praiseworthy and advantageous to have it cut away. Now every individual person is compared to the whole community, as part to whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since "a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump" (1 Corinthians 5:6). [color="#FF0000"] Reply to Objection 1.[/color] Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat, i.e. the good. This occurs when the wicked cannot be slain without the good being killed with them, either because the wicked lie hidden among the good, or because they have many followers, so that they cannot be killed without danger to the good, as Augustine says (Contra Parmen. iii, 2). Wherefore our Lord teaches that we should rather allow the wicked to live, and that vengeance is to be delayed until the last judgment, rather than that the good be put to death together with the wicked. When, however, the good incur no danger, but rather are protected and saved by the slaying of the wicked, then the latter may be lawfully put to death. [color="#FF0000"]Reply to Objection 2.[/color] According to the order of His wisdom, God sometimes slays sinners forthwith in order to deliver the good, whereas sometimes He allows them time to repent, according as He knows what is expedient for His elect. This also does human justice imitate according to its powers; for it puts to death those who are dangerous to others, while it allows time for repentance to those who sin without grievously harming others. [color="#FF0000"]Reply to Objection 3.[/color] By sinning man departs from the order of reason, and consequently falls away from the dignity of his manhood, in so far as he is naturally free, and exists for himself, and he falls into the slavish state of the beasts, by being disposed of according as he is useful to others. This is expressed in Ps. 48:21: "Man, when he was in honor, did not understand; he hath been compared to senseless beasts, and made like to them," and Prov. 11:29: "The fool shall serve the wise." Hence, although it be evil in itself to kill a man so long as he preserve his dignity, yet it may be good to kill a man who has sinned, even as it is to kill a beast. For a bad man is worse than a beast, and is more harmful, as the Philosopher states (Polit. i, 1 and Ethic. vii, 6).[/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='992479' date='May 29 2006, 04:42 PM'] SAVE TOOKIE WILLIAMS! PLEASE GO www.tookie.com NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION. DON'T LET A REPENTANT MAN DIE! . [/quote] Dude, its a little late for that, although I was saying the same thing. I even wrote letters to Schwartzenegger telling him to comute William's sentence. I hate the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 EENS!? The Church needs you though! Prayers. But what exactly do you mean you left the Church entirely? Do you not believe in it? Are you still Christian. Ignore me if I'm being intrusive. I'm just puzzled. I really do pray you find peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 i still believe. im just a little lapsed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Confession is pretty good about fixing that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 and ENCS....you are still here on phatmass! There is something to be said for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' post='991675' date='May 27 2006, 10:02 PM'] a traditional Catholic- i.e. you lived, believed and acted as Catholics always did for 1965 years- you were "outside" of the Church. [/quote] A "traditional Catholic" aka anti-Vatican2 Catholic goes back either 400 or 700 years ( I can't remember which ). The Mass has changed quite a few times since 33 AD. God Bless, ironmonk [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='991542' date='May 27 2006, 05:17 PM'] in fact, i've left the church. but at least you don't have to put up with my rad tradiness. i've just got back from my month long suspension/retreat from phatmass. I hope everyone is doing well. soooo what has happened since i left? Sam [/quote] How does your conscience justify your stance when thinking of the facts of Fatima and Saint Pio? [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0002.html[/url] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='992479' date='May 29 2006, 04:42 PM'] SAVE TOOKIE WILLIAMS! PLEASE GO www.tookie.com NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION. DON'T LET A REPENTANT MAN DIE! . [/quote] You do know that Tookie is now dead, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I knew he had apostatized awhile back, but for some odd reason I just found this thread now.... I find it ironic that Sam's username is "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" and he is now outside the Church... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Wow... so much spam. I like how all the rad-trads point fingers at prose when she's done nothing wrong... it's kinda amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='992910' date='May 30 2006, 01:09 PM'] You do know that Tookie is now dead, right? [/quote] i know. it's from Goldenchild's Profile, i was just commenting on it, because i think it's stupid. [quote name='StThomasMore' post='992920' date='May 30 2006, 01:28 PM'] I knew he had apostatized awhile back, but for some odd reason I just found this thread now.... I find it ironic that Sam's username is "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" and he is now outside the Church... [/quote] you're not the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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