"By Faith Alone"

[Nathan]

I often hear evangelical Protestants declare that Salvation is earned "by faith alone," and I am always amazed. For the life of me I cannot understand why a Christian would believe such a thing. Numerous times in my readings of Scripture I have come across passages -- in evangelical Protestant translations, no less -- that all but call it ridiculous. Like this one, which struck me earlier tonight:

[b]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/b] (James 2:14-26, NKJV)

In light of this passage -- and others -- where is the confusion? Why do so many Protestants insist upon "faith alone"? Am I missing something?

I don't know about you, but God's message through James is pretty clear to me: it is faith [i]and[/i] works that leads us to Salvation. It is quite possible to believe in Jesus Christ and at the same time fail to [i]behave[/i] as a Christian should... should we not be held accountable for these failings, just because we believe in Jesus? Like James says, even the demons believe. What brings us above the demons? Our [i]actions[/i] -- that is, our works.

Thanks.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Nathan

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

If only it were so simple. History, if nothing else, has taught us that scriptural exegesis is much more complicated. The doctrine of "Faith Alone" like the doctrine of "Faith with works" is always qualified (unless Catholics are to be misunderstood as Pelagians). Many evangelicals will insist that the ‘mediatorship’ and action of justification resides in faith alone because of the action of Christ alone to save us, or separate us from our sin and bring us to the point of being born again. The action or work of man in that salvation cannot be beyond cooperation with grace at the moment of salvation. Justification for the Catholic extends beyond and initial kerygma and conversion, but to the whole life. Evangelicals will assign only the word 'sanctification' to this process, saying that justification ends at a trust in Jesus.

Hope this helps clarify some confusion.

[Jnorm888]

We get it from Romans chapter 3 and 4



Roman Catholics can believe in a form of Faith alone as long as it doesn't contradict the Council of Trent.


Check out Joseph A. Fitzmyer's commentary


[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385233175/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prodimg_7/104-1496829-5957510?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155"]Catholic Commentary on Romans[/url]

as well as your catholic ecumenical Bible commentary.


[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814624545/qid=1148346649/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1496829-5957510?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"]ecumenical Bible commentary[/url]






INLOVE Jnorm

So the issue is not really faith alone but how one understands Faith alone. For Rome some can believe that when it comes to initial salvation it's faith alone but when it comes to the end of salvation it's justification by works.

[Nathan]

Do "faith alone" Protestants believe that once one is "saved" -- converted to a belief in Jesus Christ -- that their subsequent behavior (their works) is no longer important? That, upon death, they will not be judged by God for the ways in which they failed to live up to their faith?

I could be wrong, but this is the impression I get.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Nathan' post='987546' date='May 22 2006, 06:14 PM']
Do "faith alone" Protestants believe that once one is "saved" -- converted to a belief in Jesus Christ -- that their subsequent behavior (their works) is no longer important? That, upon death, they will not be judged by God for the ways in which they failed to live up to their faith?

I could be wrong, but this is the impression I get.
[/quote]



The Protestants that believe in Once saved always saved tend to be your Baptist or your Baptist like "nondenominationalist" The Baptist got it from the Calvinistic P.O.T.S. view but watered it down with "sin all you want" Lutherianism. Which in the Protestant world is called "Carnal Christianity" Luther believed that one could lose their salvation if they lose faith. Not if they killed, lied, murdered 1,000 times.......ect

John Calvin and his followers believed that once a true christian always a true christian. However he rejected the "carnal christian" view.

So Prespyterians, Reformed, Baptist and other groups like them believe in a Once a true Christian always a true Christian view.


Whereas, Your Methodist, Holiness, Pentecostals, Church of Christ and some charismatics believe that a true Christian truely can lose their salvation.


So these groups in the Protestant World would be the ones that don't hold to O.S.A.S. or P.O.T.S.

But Protestantism is a mixed bunch.



oh but the Protestants that believe that one can lose their salvation are much in line with the Roman view.


For with them in the beginning it's faith alone but at the end of salvation it's a justification of sanctification.


It's like that because in the Protestant world the words "Justification and sanctification are seperated and are not interchangable whereas in the Roman world those words are interchangable.......so some of it is semantics.





INLOVE Jnorm

Edited May 23, 2006 by jnorm888

[jezic]

I think that the idea sort of comes from Luther, but i am not well versed in Protestant theology.

The simplest answer is the question, can you show me your faith without works?

[jswranch]

This is more of a matter of how Prots think and come to docternal conclusions. How can they believe 'by faith alone?" They think/ interperet scripture differently. Back when I was a protestant (with growing questions), this is what I found:

Prots hold one scripture as the epitome of truth, then translate/understand all other verses accordingly. Cat theology can be reinforced by finding all the verses on a subject, and see where they point all together, with Jesus' words taking priority.

For sola fide, they use Rom 3-4. All other verses, including the words of Jesus, are to be understood in terms of Romans, see Mark16:16 and Jn 3:5 where some action (or work) is required.

Yes, Luther was the first to come up with sola fide. In his own words, he came up with it while sitting on the toilet: ~"The idea struck me like a thunderbolt wile I was in the tower on the privy."

[All due respect and charity, I believe Luther was mentally unstable]


This same formula applies to other areas, see denial of transubstantiation. They look beyond all the scriptures of 'This is my body... I am that drink...etc' and focus on the 'Do this in rememberance of me...' to conclude the lord's supper is a symbol. Lutherans/Anglicans and others are excluded from this trend as they support consubstaniation, which is a different topic.

[jswranch]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='987545' date='May 22 2006, 06:14 PM']
Roman Catholics can believe in a form of Faith alone as long as it doesn't contradict the Council of Trent.[/quote] Youch.. Not sure on this one. Have you actually read Trent?




[quote]Check out Joseph A. Fitzmyer's commentary
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385233175/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prodimg_7/104-1496829-5957510?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155"]Catholic Commentary on Romans[/url]

as well as your catholic ecumenical Bible commentary.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814624545/qid=1148346649/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1496829-5957510?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"]ecumenical Bible commentary[/url]
INLOVE Jnorm[/quote]
Carefull here. I do not deny these sources are orthodox (as I have not read it), but most Catholic teaching can be understood from the Catechism. If you want to discuss Catholic beliefs, start with the Catechism or some other source signed by a Pope.


[quote]So the issue is not really faith alone but how one understands Faith alone. For Rome some can believe that when it comes to initial salvation it's faith alone but when it comes to the end of salvation it's justification by works.[/quote] I do care for your word 'some' in this paragraph. There is but one understanding. Any conclusion about Catholic belief that they can abide by faith alone or justification by works is in error. [u]The one and only correct understanding is justification by faith and works. [/u] If you debate this fact, show sources from Trent or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='jswranch' post='990266' date='May 25 2006, 07:59 AM']
This is more of a matter of how Prots think and come to docternal conclusions. How can they believe 'by faith alone?" They think/ interperet scripture differently. Back when I was a protestant (with growing questions), this is what I found:

Prots hold one scripture as the epitome of truth, then translate/understand all other verses accordingly. Cat theology can be reinforced by finding all the verses on a subject, and see where they point all together, with Jesus' words taking priority.

For sola fide, they use Rom 3-4. All other verses, including the words of Jesus, are to be understood in terms of Romans, see Mark16:16 and Jn 3:5 where some action (or work) is required.

Yes, Luther was the first to come up with sola fide. In his own words, he came up with it while sitting on the toilet: ~"The idea struck me like a thunderbolt wile I was in the tower on the privy."

[All due respect and charity, I believe Luther was mentally unstable]
This same formula applies to other areas, see denial of transubstantiation. They look beyond all the scriptures of 'This is my body... I am that drink...etc' and focus on the 'Do this in rememberance of me...' to conclude the lord's supper is a symbol. Lutherans/Anglicans and others are excluded from this trend as they support consubstaniation, which is a different topic.
[/quote]





LOL


I agree with much of what you said about how we Prots look at Roman chapter 3 and 4 and try to make everything else fit into it....including the Gospels.


I for one take what you call the catholic approach to scripture. And Luther was not the first to come up with "Faith alone" some before him believed it......however, unlike Luther they never made it the doctrine on which the Church stands or falls on. And they also believed that we christians must not only maintain our salvation, but that we can also lose our salvation as well.







INLOVE Jnorm

Edited May 25, 2006 by jnorm888

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='jswranch' post='990272' date='May 25 2006, 08:14 AM']
Youch.. Not sure on this one. Have you actually read Trent?
Carefull here. I do not deny these sources are orthodox (as I have not read it), but most Catholic teaching can be understood from the Catechism. If you want to discuss Catholic beliefs, start with the Catechism or some other source signed by a Pope.
I do care for your word 'some' in this paragraph. There is but one understanding. Any conclusion about Catholic belief that they can abide by faith alone or justification by works is in error. [u]The one and only correct understanding is justification by faith and works. [/u] If you debate this fact, show sources from Trent or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
[/quote]






Yupp, I read the council of Trent, and the Arminian strain of Protestantism is in reality much in agreement with it when it comes to much of the anathemas of "faith alone".



A doctrine influences another. It all depends on how one understands a doctrine.






INLOVE Jnorm


What is your take on ECT?

[jswranch]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='990607' date='May 25 2006, 04:36 PM']
What is your take on ECT?
[/quote]

What is ECT?

As for Sola fide, I did some bible research (GASP!... but I used to be prot.

I looked up the scriptures clearly defining requirements for salvation or denial into heaven. I do not attempt here to answer the question, “What does it take to go to heaven?” or “Who will go to hell?” Below is simply a collection of scriptures with a clear directive and/or description in its immediate context. Some scriptures were excluded due to lack of clarity or contextual relevance.

I will only post the scripture ref, not the entire verse.

Matt 5:22
Matt 7:21-23
Matt 12:36-37
Matt 13:41-42, 49-50
Matt 18:3 [Mk 10:15, Lk18:17]
Matt 19:16-19
Mk 3:29
Mk 8:34-35
Mk 13:12-13 [Lk 9:24]
Mk 16:16
Lk 10:25-28
Lk 23:42
Jn 3:3-7
Jn 5:24
Jn 6:51-58
Jn 8:23-24
Jn 12:25

And that is just from the gospels... ie from the horse's mouth. I consider the rest (epistles) mostly as infallible commentary (asside from some public revelation and prophesy).


I will email the rest if you want.

BTW, who came up with Sola fide before Luther?

Edited May 26, 2006 by jswranch

[Jnorm888]

Clement of Rome (He was the second or third Bishop of Rome) around 90 A.D. - 96 A.D.


"And we, therefore are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning."




IGNATIUS

"The prophets also do we love, because they have announced the Gospel; and they hoped in him and awaited him. In him and by their faith in him they were saved, being united to Jesus Christ."




Ambrose


"Without the works of the Law to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his 'faith is imputed for righteousness,' as also it was to Abraham. How, then, can the Jews imagine, that through the works of the Law they are justified with the justification of Abraham, when they see that Abraham was justified, not by the works of the Law, but by faith alone? There is no need, therefore, of the Law, since through faith alone, an ungodly man is justified with God."

"They are justified by faith alone by the gift of God."

"He calls them blessed of whom God has decreed, without any labour or observation, they should be justified only by faith."



ORIGEN


"The apostles saith, that the justification onely of faith sufficeth."




CYRIL OF JERUSALEM


"A man by faith alone doth cleave unto Christ."

"We should not think to be justified by work, nor hope for grace by our merits, but by faith."








CHRYSOSTOM


"If you believe faith, why do you bring other things in, as though faith alone sufficed not to justify?"


[speaking of the thief on the cross] "I can shew a faithful man without works... only faith by itself saved him."




BASIL


"He doth know himself only justified by faith in Christ."




JEROME


"When an ungodly man is converted, God justifies him through faith alone, not on account of good works, which he possessed not; otherwise, on account of his ungodly deeds, he ought to have been punished. Christ, who 'knew no sin,' the Father 'made sin for us,' that, as a victim offered for sin was in the Law called 'sin,' so likewise Christ, being offered for our sins, received the name of 'sin,' that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him --not our righteousness, nor in ourselves."




AUGUSTINE

"We are commanded to live righteously, and the reward is set before us of our meriting to live happily in eternity. But who is able to live righteously and do good works unless he has been justified by faith?"



THEODORET

"For not by our works but by faith alone, we have obtained the mystical good things."


PRIMASIUS


"He hath justified the wicked by faith alone, not by works."






CLAUDIUS


"Faith alone saveth us, because by the works of the law shall no man be justified."
INLOVE Jnorm


SEDULIUS


"It was just, that as Abraham was justified by faith alone, so also the rest that followed his faith should be saved."



PETER LOMBARD

"As in time past, they which looked upon the brazen Serpent were healed from the biting of Serpents; so if by the beholding of faith, we look upon him that hung upon the tree, we are loosed from our sins."




BERNARD OF CLAIRVAUX

Whosoever, feeling compunction for his sins, hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in Thee, who 'justifiest the ungodly;' and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God. . . . Thy Passion is the last refuge, the alone remedy.






Romans 4:1-3


"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."



Romans 4:10

"Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!"







It's obvious that "Initial" salvation or Justification is by "Faith alone".


What did Abraham do? He didn't do anything but believe.


So it's ok to believe in a form of Faith alone. This idea is not against the council of Trent.


All the guys I quoted above believed that one must not only maintain one's salvation but that one could also lose their salvation as well.

It is the goal of a Christian to grow in grace/increase in sanctification.

Or in the language of Trent "increase in justification"








INLOVE Jnorm

Edited May 26, 2006 by jnorm888

[jswranch]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='987545' date='May 22 2006, 06:14 PM']
Roman Catholics can believe in a form of Faith alone as long as it doesn't contradict the Council of Trent.
...
So the issue is not really faith alone but how one understands Faith alone. For Rome some can believe that when it comes to initial salvation it's faith alone but when it comes to the end of salvation it's justification by works.
[/quote]

Ok, score one for the Prot

I was wrong. Sola fide is ok for Cats, depending on the deffinition. It all comes down to deffinitions. I learned this from Jimmy Akin in the Akin vs White bible answer man debates I heard today.

So Luther may not have been the first to bring up salvation by faith alone, but was the first to redefine it as it was used in the reformation.

Edited May 27, 2006 by jswranch