30,000 Protestant Denominations?

[Jnorm888]

[url="http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm"]30,000 Protestant Denominations?[/url]


I have used this arguement myself, but it looks like the source was faulty. This is why it is always good to check sources.....especially primary sources.




[quote]"Due to popular request and to the ongoing distortion of figures from uninformed Roman Catholic apologists writing on this issue, I am posting the following excerpt from my forthcoming book, Upon This Slippery Rock (Calvary Press, 2002).

Throughout this book we have examined the Roman Catholic apologist’s primary argument against sola Scriptura and Protestantism; namely, that sola Scriptura produces doctrinal anarchy as is witnessed in the 25,000 Protestant denominations extant today. We have all along assumed the soundness of the premise that in fact there are 25,000 Protestant denominations; and we have shown that—even if this figure is correct—the Roman Catholic argument falls to the ground since it compares apples to oranges. We have just one more little detail to address before we can close; namely, the correctness of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denominations figure itself.

When this figure first surfaced among Roman Catholic apologists, it started at 20,000 Protestant denominations, grew to 23,000 Protestant denominations, then to 25,000 Protestant denominations. More recently, that figure has been inflated to 28,000, to over 32,000. These days, many Roman Catholic apologists feel content simply to calculate a daily rate of growth (based on their previous adherence to the original benchmark figure of 20,000) that they can then use as a basis for projecting just how many Protestant denominations there were, or will be, in any given year. But just where does this figure originate?

I have posed this question over and over again to many different Roman Catholic apologists, none of whom were able to verify the source with certainty. In most cases, one Roman Catholic apologist would claim he obtained the figure from another Roman Catholic apologist. When I would ask the latter Roman Catholic apologist about the figure, it was not uncommon for that apologist to point to the former apologist as his source for the figure, creating a circle with no actual beginning. I have long suspected that, whatever the source might be, the words “denomination” and “Protestant” were being defined in a way that most of us would reject"

I have only recently been able to locate the source of this figure. I say the source because in fact there is only one source that mentions this figure independently. All other secondary sources (to which Roman Catholics sometimes make appeal) ultimately cite the same original source. That source is David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982). This work is both comprehensive and painstakingly detailed; and its contents are quite enlightening. However, the reader who turns to this work for validation of the Roman Catholic 25,000-Protestant-denomination argument will be sadly disappointed. What follows is a synopsis of what Barrett’s work in this area really says.

First, Barrett, writing in 1982, does indeed cite a figure of 20,780 denominations in 1980, and projects that there would be as many as 22,190 denominations by 1985. This represents an increase of approximately 270 new denominations each year (Barrett, 17). What the Roman Catholic who cites this figure does not tell us (most likely because he does not know) is that most of these denominations are non-Protestant.

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations.

According to Barrett’s calculations, there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism—not 25,000 as Roman Catholic apologists so cavalierly and carelessly claim. Barrett is also quick to point out that one cannot simply assume that this number will continue to grow each year; hence, the typical Roman Catholic projection of an annual increase in this number is simply not a given. Yet even this figure is misleading; for it is clear that Barrett defines “distinct denominations” as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group (such as the difference between a Baptist church that emphasizes hymns, and another Baptist church that emphasizes praise music).

No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism. Moreover, Barrett indicates in the case of Roman Catholicism that even this number can be broken down further to produce 2,942 separate “denominations”—and that was only in 1970! In that same year there were only 3,294 Protestant denominations; a difference of only 352 denominations. If we were to use the Roman Catholic apologist’s method to “project” a figure for the current day, we could no doubt postulate a number upwards of 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations today! Hence, if Roman Catholic apologists want to argue that Protestantism is splintered into 8,196 “bickering” denominations, then they must just as readily admit that their own ecclesial system is splintered into at least 2,942 bickering denominations (possibly as many as 8,000). If, on the other hand, they would rather claim that among those 2,942+ (perhaps 8,000?) Roman Catholic denominations there is “unity,” then they can have no objection to the notion that among the 8,196 Protestant denominations there is also unity.

In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.

However Barrett has defined “denomination,” it is clear that he does not think of these as major distinctions; for that is something he reserves for another category. In addition to the seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above), Barrett breaks down each of these traditions into smaller units that might have significant differences (what he calls “major ecclesiastical traditions,” and what we might normally call a true denomination) (Barrett, 14). Referring again to our seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above, but this time in reverse order): For (1) Catholic (Non-Roman), there are four traditions, including Catholic Apostolic, Reformed Catholic, Old Catholic, and Conservative Catholic; for (2) Marginal Protestants, there are six traditions; for (3) Anglican, there are six traditions; for (4) Non-White Indigenous, which encompasses third-world peoples (among whom can be found traces of Christianity mixed with the major tenets of their indigenous pagan religions), there are twenty traditions, including a branch of Reformed Catholic and a branch of Conservative Catholic; for (5) Orthodox, there are nineteen traditions; for (6) Protestant, there are twenty-one traditions; and for (7) Roman Catholic, there are sixteen traditions, including Latin-rite local, Latin-rite catholic, Latin/Eastern-rite local, Latin/Eastern-rite catholic, Syro-Malabarese, Ukrainian, Romanian, Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean, Ruthenian, Hungarian, plural Oriental rites, Syro-Malankarese, Slovak, and Coptic. It is important to note here that Barrett places these sixteen Roman Catholic traditions (i.e., true denominations) on the very same level as the twenty-one Protestant traditions (i.e., true denominations). In other words, the true count of real denominations within Protestantism is twenty-one, whereas the true count of real denominations within Roman Catholic is sixteen. Combined with the other major ecclesiastical blocs, that puts the total number of actual denominations in the world at ninety-two—obviously nowhere near the 23,000 or 25,000 figure that Roman Catholic apologists constantly assert—and that figure of ninety-two denominations includes the sixteen denominations of Roman Catholicism (Barrett, 15)! Barrett goes on to note that this figure includes all denominations with a membership of over 100,000. There are an additional sixty-four denominations worldwide, distributed among the seven major ecclesiastical blocs.

As we have shown, the larger figures mentioned earlier (8,196 Protestant denominations and perhaps as many as 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations) are based on jurisdiction rather than differing beliefs and practice. Obviously, neither of those figures represents a true denominational distinction. Hence, Barrett’s broader category (which we have labeled true denominations) of twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations represents a much more realistic calculation..........[/quote]













INLOVE Jnorm


Will Roman Catholic Apologist update their research?

Edited May 20, 2006 by jnorm888

[rkwright]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='985874' date='May 20 2006, 10:01 AM']
[url="http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm"]30,000 Protestant Denominations?[/url]
I have used this arguement myself, but it looks like the source was faulty. This is why it is always good to check sources.....especially primary sources.

INLOVE Jnorm
Will Roman Catholic Apologist update their research?
[/quote]


My problem with all this lies in this paragraph
[quote]In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.[/quote]

Counting each diocese as a seperate denonmination is simply incorrect. Ever diocese, and further more every rite within the Church, all acknowledge and believe the same things. Some look, smell, and maybe feel a little different, but there is no doctrinal differences between rites (I'm pretty sure.. wheres someone whose more knowledgable in Eastern Rite than me...) and especially no doctrinal diffrences between dioceses.

I'm not too sure on the protestant organization, but I think that without some sort of set beliefs, or some body laying them down (ie Rome) any one church can teach anything they want. They may all end up teaching nearly the same thing, but its not this common belief that holds them together.

[Socrates]

Whatever the actual number may be (and, really, there is no way of knowing, as new Protestant denominations continue to be formed, and there may be disagreement as to what consititutes a "denomination"), the fact remains that there are a large number number of Protestant sects which disagree on many key theological issues.
The essential argument remains valid.

All Protestant denominations can be traced back to a founding at some time after AD 1517. Only the Catholic Church can be traced back to the Apostles. All Protestant denominations either broke from the Catholic Church, or from another Protestant denomination.

And counting every Catholic Diocese as a different "denomination" is nonsense. A diocese is a geographical/hierarchical division, not a seperate "church" - all dioceses are bound to accept the teachings of Rome. They are not different denominations in the sense of the Baptists being a different denomination from the Methodists.

[Ash Wednesday]

30,000 is a very charitable estimate, in my opinion. If we considered those individuals who reject Catholicism and subscribe to their own "customized religion" -- the number would be much higher.

[ironmonk]

Last I heard (over a year ago) it was up to over 35,000.

The thing is, if you think about it, it's not hard to believe.

Everyone that picks up a bible and starts their own church is a denomination. Every "Non-denom" is a denomination... etc... In a town of 50,000 people you'll find a dozen or so start up churches... imagine how many the bigger cities have. Then you have all those "mega-churches" that pack thousands of people in.

Think of how many flavors of baptist churches there are.

I'm sure thousands of denominations are only a few hundred people... then if you want to get technical, think of how many "bible only" people there are that don't even go to church... where their "church" is their household with maybe a friend or two.

Starting a church is great business... I knew a kid (his name was Tad), his dad use to be secret service, then his dad started a church and they live if a $5 million dollar house. If the Catholic Church wasn't truth, I'd do it.

The data that I found came from the Christian World Encyclopedia or something like that. If I remember correctly the CWE got it's data from denominations that were registered with their governments.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[rkwright]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='986161' date='May 20 2006, 09:09 PM']
Last I heard (over a year ago) it was up to over 35,000.

The thing is, if you think about it, it's not hard to believe.

Everyone that picks up a bible and starts their own church is a denomination. Every "Non-denom" is a denomination... etc... In a town of 50,000 people you'll find a dozen or so start up churches... imagine how many the bigger cities have. Then you have all those "mega-churches" that pack thousands of people in.

Think of how many flavors of baptist churches there are.

I'm sure thousands of denominations are only a few hundred people... then if you want to get technical, think of how many "bible only" people there are that don't even go to church... where their "church" is their household with maybe a friend or two.

Starting a church is great business... I knew a kid (his name was Tad), his dad use to be secret service, then his dad started a church and they live if a $5 million dollar house. If the Catholic Church wasn't truth, I'd do it.

The data that I found came from the Christian World Encyclopedia or something like that. If I remember correctly the CWE got it's data from denominations that were registered with their governments.
God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]

Boy doesn't that hit too close to home! My freshman year roommate, a non-demon Christian filled me in on some key pointers on running a church. We were both finance majors (at the time) and I'll never forget when he told me that he was a finance major so that he could become a pastor; 'running a church is like running a business. My finance background will be perfect'

hmm I guess look for his church in the near future to turn out some huge profit, and when they go public, I'll be sure to announce so you can get a jump start on it :

[phatcatholic]

catholic apologist Dave Armstrong has responded to this:
[b]--[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20001217080800/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ429.HTM"]23,000 or More Protestant Denominations: A Myth of Catholic Apologists or a Documented Fact?[/url]
--[url="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_08_29_socrates58_archive.html#109434258447719839"]33,000 Protestant Denominations?[/url][/b]

peace,
phatcatholic

[thessalonian]

How about if we say there are tons of denominations. . All rooted in the deformation, I mean reformation. . In dialoguing with Protestants I am convinced that there are in fact a complete theological tower of babel of denominations. I don't know exactly how many but there is no doudt that every passage in the Bible that can be distorted is. And there are still more ways of distorting them.

Blessings

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Thanks for the links phatcatholic. I could agree to 8,146 denominations, and as ironmonk pointed out not all people who wear the Christian collar are doing so for holy and dignified reasons. Although, painting all Protestants with a get-rich-quick brush is like donning all Catholic priests as pedophiles. I'd rather we did not go there.

Edited May 22, 2006 by Jesuspaidtheprice

[Desert Walker]

To paraphrase a critique of modernism I once read:

"Both Modernism and Protestantism are founded on the same flawed practice of abusing the capacity for personal judgement."

It is flawed because if everybody follows their own personal judgement about something, the Bible for instance, then VERY FEW people will actually travel the same intellectual and behavioral road. But there will be constant crisscrossing, retracing, meandering and head-on and side-on collisions among the travelers.

It's really a laughable state of affairs when you think about it. And it's all because a bunch of "inspired ones" decide that God has finally revealed the Truth to THEM, and thus, it's up to THEM to convert the world to THEIR version of the Eternal Truth (but we must, of course, avoid using the word "version" for it might offend). Poor misguided souls! If only Luther and Calvin had not so VIOLENTLY opposed and rejected the only authority worth listening to on such matters (the Pope).

Thus are we left in the catastrophic aftermath of these two human catastrophes. The doctrines Luther and Calvin gave the world produced such wonderful versions of "Christianity" as Puritanism and the Christian Right. You can thank Luther and Calvin, unfortunately educated men, for the tomfoolery espoused by such illustrious personages as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and John Hagee.

One day the common Christian will wake up and see that he has been made into a very effective political tool by his or her "ministers." Ministers who are so disgusted by the American Democratic Party that they would elect anyone bearing the title "Republican," including the Antichrist, who, with the cunning of Lucifer, would easily escape the Alarm System of Christo-American Morality which most Democrats so adeptly set off in their innate stupidity.

[Jaime]

[quote]One day the common Christian will wake up and see that he has been made into a very effective political tool by his or her "ministers." Ministers who are so disgusted by the American Democratic Party that they would elect anyone bearing the title "Republican," including the Antichrist, who, with the cunning of Lucifer, would easily escape the Alarm System of Christo-American Morality which most Democrats so adeptly set off in their innate stupidity.
[/quote]


While I've been known to be critical of Bush from time to time, I've never accused him of being the Antichrist.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='987023' date='May 22 2006, 08:49 AM']
While I've been known to be critical of Bush from time to time, I've never accused him of being the Antichrist.
[/quote]



I wasn't referring to HIM. I'm just talking about potential stuff. It may or may not happen. I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened yet...

BTW, in MY mind, the person called "Antichrist" could be anyone who has PROFESSIONALLY set themselves against Christianity (and goodness in general). Such a list of person could include people like Nero, Rasputin, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, etc. At the same time, however, I'm also pretty much convinced there will come among us a man whom we could properly describe as the Antichrist to end all Antichrists.

I hope that on that day my body will be rotting in some grave. I'd rather watch the fireworks from Beyond.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='986493' date='May 21 2006, 11:26 AM']
catholic apologist Dave Armstrong has responded to this:
[b]--[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20001217080800/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ429.HTM"]23,000 or More Protestant Denominations: A Myth of Catholic Apologists or a Documented Fact?[/url]
--[url="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_08_29_socrates58_archive.html#109434258447719839"]33,000 Protestant Denominations?[/url][/b]

peace,
phatcatholic
[/quote]



Thanks I will read it tomorrow when I have more time. thanks for the responce







INLOVE Jnorm

[quote name='Desert Walker' post='987038' date='May 22 2006, 09:03 AM']


I wasn't referring to HIM. I'm just talking about potential stuff. It may or may not happen. I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened yet...

BTW, in MY mind, the person called "Antichrist" could be anyone who has PROFESSIONALLY set themselves against Christianity (and goodness in general). Such a list of person could include people like Nero, Rasputin, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, etc. At the same time, however, I'm also pretty much convinced there will come among us a man whom we could properly describe as the Antichrist to end all Antichrists.

I hope that on that day my body will be rotting in some grave. I'd rather watch the fireworks from Beyond.
[/quote]



Bush seemed more than willing to seek out the advise of the Pope on moral matters.


That was a major step for unity than anything I know of from the past from Protestants. You shouldn't think so ill of Protestants.





INLOVE Jnorm

Edited May 23, 2006 by jnorm888