Religion, good or bad for society?

[PadreSantiago]

September 27, 2005
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder
rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a
healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral
and ethical foundations of a healthy society.
It compares the social performance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with
the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution.
Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing
that it inspires atheism and amorality.
Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially
beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual
promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described
as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US
may actually contribute to its ills.
The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports:
“Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, Godblessed,
shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly
sceptical world.
“In general, [b]higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates
of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and
abortion in the prosperous democracies.[/b] [Note these 5 factors.]
“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies,
sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International
Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.
He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage
pregnancy.
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where
murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional.
Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300
times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from
“uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion
rates, the study suggested.
Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually
performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a
much less religious nation than America.”
He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other
countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had
been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted
diseases and abortion, he added.
Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said
that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion
might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled
by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.
He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of
evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise,
the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a
marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.
“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot
enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore
refuted.”

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a link to the study this article references:
[url="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html"]http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html[/url]

Edited May 20, 2006 by PadreSantiago

[Theoketos]

Correlation does not equal causality.


More importantly this article has serious anti-Christian political bend.

Further to simply have religious belief/a belief in God does not make one a better person or Chirstian. A bad religion will make one a worse person, the converse is true. This is why it is important to be Orthodox.

The true Faith cares only about the Theory of Evolution in so far as it does not deny God. If the theory of evolution does not deny a creator then it is fine.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='986552' date='May 21 2006, 02:49 PM']
Correlation does not equal causality.
More importantly this article has serious anti-Christian political bend.

Further to simply have religious belief/a belief in God does not make one a better person or Chirstian. A bad religion will make one a worse person, the converse is true. This is why it is important to be Orthodox.

The true Faith cares only about the Theory of Evolution in so far as it does not deny God. If the theory of evolution does not deny a creator then it is fine.
[/quote]
This same article (or something very like it) was posted some months back (I beleive by Padre Santiago), and I responded to it.
This is just trolling to provoke a response.

The very premise is on-the-face-of-it absurd. People fornicate and commit violent crimes [b]because of[/b] their Christian Faith?? Who really seriously believes that?

I'm sure if you did a survey of practicing, pious, religious, Church-going Christians, you'd find very few of them involved in crime, etc. compared with the general population. Most of those in jail were probably not very active in their Faith when they committed their crimes. There are many factors involved in high crime rates, illegitimacy, etc. but religion is not one of them.

It is interesting that Britain is mentioned, because Britain is now an extremely secular country, yet crime rates and other social ills have sky-rocketed there over the past few decades. (Now rates for every violent crime except murder are higher than the U.S.). Yet religion is generally declining there, so it would be hard to blame religion for this problem!

Crime rates, STDs, etc., have also risen in the U.S. in the decades since the 1960s, yet American society as a whole has become much less religious during that time period. Blaming religion for crime and other social ills just doesn't make sense.

[Ash Wednesday]

I remember this article being posted before, also.

Religion has been part of mankind for as long as man has walked the earth, and it always will be.

Deal with it, or get over it.

[Diamond]

Religion is either true or not true. Bad or good for society isn't the question. That part doesn't matter.

Of course, we know that the true religion, if followed correctly, would be good for society. But that's just a product of the truth, and not the issue itself.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I like Diamond's point. I wouldn't be surprised if religious nations or religious people for that matter generally had more crime etc. Religion makes lust enticing, torments the weak with brimestone causing them to go insane etc. Also, generally the religous countries are the poor countries, or ignorant. A lot of Americans are ignorant. Ignorance brings crime. Oftentimes what happens in the west is that intellecutualism kills spiritiaualism. There's a certain western ideology that says that smart people aren't religious, an enlightenment thing. Doesn't make religioius thought wrong, however. If the truth causes people to go insane, I wouldn't be surprised, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth, or that people should not know it.

[Mateo el Feo]

Ah, the Jesuits and their journals...

This article's author is just trying to take an agenda (i.e. religion is bad) and try to warp reality to "prove" his position. He uses published statistics ([url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393310728/102-6140243-8579317?v=glance&n=283155"]fun link[/url]) to "prove" his opinion. Wow.

Mostly, the whitepaper relies on the US (aka the religious country) as an anomolous entry in his selection of countries (first world countries). Without the US in the sample, correlation goes to almost zero. Even worse, Japan skews the study when he presents them as a country in which few believe in a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible to fit them onto his graphs. Hello...they are not and have never been a Christian country. Duh...

In this study, the only countries considered outside of Western Europe were Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and the US. A more telling study about society and religioin would consider other parts of the world that the author left out. For example, considering former Eastern Bloc countries, African countries, and Muslim countries. Just imagine what correlation lines would appear.

PS: Here's the first time Padre Santiago shared this study with Phatmass: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48231"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48231[/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='986710' date='May 21 2006, 07:55 PM']
I like Diamond's point. I wouldn't be surprised if religious nations or religious people for that matter generally had more crime etc. Religion makes lust enticing, torments the weak with brimestone causing them to go insane etc. Also, generally the religous countries are the poor countries, or ignorant. A lot of Americans are ignorant. Ignorance brings crime. Oftentimes what happens in the west is that intellecutualism kills spiritiaualism. There's a certain western ideology that says that smart people aren't religious, an enlightenment thing. Doesn't make religioius thought wrong, however. If the truth causes people to go insane, I wouldn't be surprised, but that doesn't mean it's not the truth, or that people should not know it.
[/quote]
I would seriously doubt that anyone could produce a survey showing that people who are [b]actively religious Christians[/b] (go to church regularly, pray often, active in their Faith) are more likely to commit crimes than those who are not actively religious. (Many people would call themselves "Christian" when asked their religion, or beleive in God, but not lead actively religious lives.)

And the point about religion causing people to go insane is nonsense, and not backed up by statistics. Surveys have repeatedly shown that people who have strong faith and are religious are on average happier and have fewer emotional/mental problems than those who do not. The idea that religious folks tend to be unstable, violent psychopaths is a false hollywood stereotype, not confirmed by reality.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='986710' date='May 21 2006, 09:55 PM']
Religion makes lust enticing, torments the weak with brimestone causing them to go insane etc. [/quote]
Definitely a keeper. I'm going to have to add this to my list of quotes. Too funny.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='986724' date='May 21 2006, 08:16 PM']
[quote]Religion makes lust enticing, torments the weak with brimestone causing them to go insane etc.[/quote]
Definitely a keeper. I'm going to have to add this to my list of quotes. Too funny.
[/quote]
LOL

[misereremi]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='986710' date='May 22 2006, 02:55 AM']
I wouldn't be surprised if religious nations or religious people for that matter generally had more crime etc. Religion makes lust enticing, torments the weak with brimestone causing them to go insane etc. Also, generally the religous countries are the poor countries, or ignorant. [/quote]

This must be a joke surely, otherwise it is really quite insulting. I seriously question the validity of the research as well as the definition of "religious" and your interpretation of "poor" and "ignorant".

As Socrates pointed out, violent crimes have been on the up here. From what I deal with day in and day out, it is obvious that secular, liberal society and governnment is failing people, especially those living in deprived areas. To me Britain's great poverty are the neglected and unloved children, products of a "Godless citizenry".

The few people I know who are coming correct are those who have found and practice a religion and/or have found a loving relationship. I'm hoping that more research will be commissioned to look at this.

[Winchester]

I don't recall better behavior being taught as a benefit of religion. I believe following the tenets of the particular religions results in some form of benefit in the afterlife.

When people haven't any strong notions of self, perhaps they do behave more blandly. Certainly without religion, people wouldn't kill each other over religion. They would kill each other over more acceptable things, like money and land, which are often the real reasons behind claims of religious killing. I don't know of any reasonable person who has ever denied this, and I have known a great many reasonable religious people. I have also known a great deal of unreasonable anti-religious people.

Certainly the unspoken fear of oblivion amongst atheists may well lead to more restrained behavior. Like Maoists. Yes, that is quite a good example of a peaceful social movement motivated by a lack of belief in any sort of God.

We needn't a deity to justify slaughter. Really, all one needs is a charismatic leader. Perhaps one day there will be more charisma amongst atheists. It is a rather young group, and in its short history the great leaders have tended toward a mouthiness unmatched by physical action. I can understand this, because the reward for martyrdom in atheism is far less desirable than the reward in, say, the Muslim faith. At least for the men.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' post='985706' date='May 19 2006, 10:34 PM']
September 27, 2005
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
[/quote]
With all due respect, poppycock! [url="http://www.lincolnsnacks.com/poppycock/index.asp"]http://www.lincolnsnacks.com/poppycock/index.asp[/url]

and yes, I consider the word 'poppycock' to be in itself a refutation of that article. boo yah!





how've you been padre?

[jswranch]

Let us never forget nor cease to emphasize:

1. The bloodiest wars in history were conducted in the last few hundred years.

2. All of these were started by non-religious/athiest/agnostic communities or countries (communism/fascism/dictatorships).

[Justified Saint]

There is truth in the adage that the greatest saints are also the greatest sinners.