Ash Wednesday Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I think much of the question of Catholics using images/icons and praying to Mary and the saints has a lot to do with the fact that a great deal of people, especially non-Catholics, do not understand the Catholic concept of veneration and life after death. For example, we do not view Mary and the saints as being "dead" -- we view them as being very much alive. We ask them to pray [i]for[/i] us, to Jesus, the same way we ask that of our friends here on earth. It does not mean that we can't or don't pray to Jesus, nor does that mean that they take any place of what we believe to be the only mediator between God and man, which is Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 (BTW Ash your avatar rocks. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986338' date='May 21 2006, 07:45 AM'] Anti-Catholicism is mainly based around the facts that: - You people are responsible, over the centuries, for more atrocities against fellow men than any other religious group. [/quote] That claim is completely baseless and unsupported by the evidence. Let's review famous cases of Catholic atrocities: Witch Hunts - Mostly carried out by protestants and secular authorities. As early as the late 16th century, Jesuits and Dominicans were writing AGAINST witch trials. Spanish Inquisition - Run by the Spanish crown for the purposes of consolidating power. The pope even asked them to stop. The Crusades - A response to a desperate plea for help by Emperor Alexius Komnenos of the Byzantine empire due to encroachment by Muslim Turks. Furthermore, the conquest of the Holy Land wasn't stealing Muslim land from Muslims. They had taken it from the Christians of the Byzantine empire and a great deal of the populace was still Christian. Even the Fourth Crusade which conquered Constantinople cannot be blamed on the Catholics. The pope issued several statements decrying the act. I don't have any problem with you not being a Catholic, but you should at least learn your history before slinging around nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='Rick777' post='986415' date='May 21 2006, 09:37 AM'] (BTW Ash your avatar rocks. ) [/quote] Don't it, tho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='986416' date='May 21 2006, 11:37 AM'] Spanish Inquisition - Run by the Spanish crown for the purposes of consolidating power. The pope even asked them to stop. [/quote] ...Except you're forgetting the part where Sixtus was scared into giving them his blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986422' date='May 21 2006, 10:41 AM'] ...Except you're forgetting the part where Sixtus was scared into giving them his blessing. [/quote] I actually don't even think that's necessarily a fair statement. Running an Inquisition wasn't an atrocity, and he could not have known the ends to which the Spanish crown would use it. That they chose to abuse the system they had been given doesn't codemn the system itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Oh no, he was well aware of the atrocities going on, because he was frightened into supporting it after it was well underway, luffy. Good try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986429' date='May 21 2006, 10:50 AM'] Oh no, he was well aware of the atrocities going on, because he was frightened into supporting it after it was well underway, luffy. Good try though. [/quote] Got any documentary evidence to support that claim, champ? Besides which, you're already agreeing that the pope wasn't behind the Spanish Inquistion, wasn't a motivating factor, and didn't agree with it. All of which shows that the Catholic Church as an institution can't be held accountable for it. Secondly, your claim was that Catholicism is responsible for more atrocities than any other religious group. Atrocities aren't really quantifiable, and even if they were your claim still wouldn't hold water. You're ignoring anything that has been done in the name of Islam, or in the name of Judaism, or in the name of pagan faiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor13 Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) [quote name='KizlarAgha' post='986431' date='May 21 2006, 09:54 AM'] Secondly, your claim was that Catholicism is responsible for more atrocities than any other religious group. Atrocities aren't really quantifiable, and even if they were your claim still wouldn't hold water. You're ignoring anything that has been done in the name of Islam, or in the name of Judaism, or in the name of pagan faiths. [/quote] And let's not forget 'in the name of the State.' Personally, I think secularism/atheism has caused more atrocities in the past 200 or so years than Catholicism has in the past two thousand. Edited May 21, 2006 by raptor13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Just because the head of the Church didn't willingly condone it doesn't mean that millions of the members of your faith weren't condoning and TAKING PART in it. And please, never mention pagan faiths again. You people have killed them all. [quote name='raptor13' post='986434' date='May 21 2006, 12:04 PM'] And let's not forget 'in the name of State.' Personally, I think secularism has caused more atrocities in the past 200 or so years than Catholicism has in the past two thousand. [/quote] Only because of Comrade Stalin X_x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986435' date='May 21 2006, 12:04 PM'] Just because the head of the Church didn't willingly condone it doesn't mean that millions of the members of your faith weren't condoning and TAKING PART in it. And please, never mention pagan faiths again. You people have killed them all. Only because of Comrade Stalin X_x [/quote] show the documents about [i]millions[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [url="http://www.google.com/"]http://www.google.com/[/url] Type in "Spanish population in [year]". Add that of other countries where it was supported. You're winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986338' date='May 21 2006, 06:45 AM'] Anti-Catholicism is mainly based around the facts that: - You people are pagans and pray to Mary. - You people worship [i]images[/i]. - You people are responsible, over the centuries, for more atrocities against fellow men than any other religious group. - You people try to eat Jesus Christ every Sunday. - INTOLERANCE - And in the minds of the uninformed, you're all a bunch of child molesting old men. [/quote] The term "you people" is one used by bigots, all these "facts" are spewed by lost souls so full of hate for their brethren it blinds them to truth. Souls which hearts are so full of hate, deprived of truth and love such as yours will not eneter the Kingdom of Jehovah, according that is to The Holy Scriptures. May God have mercy on your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 You're certainly a cute little [uncharitable 1930s/40s historical reference] aren't ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Clearly this is a thread bound for the debate table. I hope that a mod moves it there soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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