Now see... this kind of thing becomes difficult for skeptics...

[CatholicCid]

The fact this article is almost 4 years after 9-11 makes me doubt it's realibility.

[ChrisZewe]

And that none of the other people have said anything.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='985428' date='May 19 2006, 02:55 PM']
The fact this article is almost 4 years after 9-11 makes me doubt it's realibility.
[/quote]

According to this reasoning one could even MORE easily say:

"The fact that the bible is over 1000 years old makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that Vatican II is over 60 years old makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that the Universe is older than the last 5 minutes makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that, currently, ALL eyewitness accounts of the events of 911 are almost 4 years old makes me doubt their reliability."


please.... you have to be capable of doing better than that.

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='985432' date='May 19 2006, 03:03 PM']
And that none of the other people have said anything.
[/quote]

That's actually (and happily I might add)


not true.

BEHOLD:

[quote]
Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.

Brian Becker -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 28]
The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 6]
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.

Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 202]
But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]
we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11]
You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down.

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]
... you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was.

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
... and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
...
I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
.. there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion ...

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode.

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
... the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out.

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there.

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building.

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building.
...
My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off.

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running.

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook.

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above.

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder ...

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out.

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
... it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came.

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
... that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions.

William Wall -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]
At that time, we heard an explosion. We looked up and the building was coming down right on top of us ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source

The Sept. 11 Records, New York Times[/quote]

[ChrisZewe]

...I wasn't there. And it doesn't matter. So I don't care.

[Desert Walker]

Yeah that's the attitude of most people when this subject is talked about. I think it's sad. 3,000 people lost their lives, some in ways so violent, that when I read about it, I shuddered inside. One firefighter described people who suddenly ran wildy past him down a corridor in one of the towers. They were living torches. All their clothes had been burned off, and the flesh was gradually being eaten away. The horrific thing was that they weren't screaming, probably because their vocal organs had been scorched.

You don't care...!

These people were murdered! And the government STILL has not done a concise, scientific investigation of their murders!

In fact, the government artificially CLOSED the case with that farce called the 911 Commission.

And this kind of absurd meandering is probably because they all have a pretty good idea that it was members of their OWN RANKS who orchestrated this atrocity!

[thessalonian]

Someone threw a molatave cocktail from a grassy noll I've heard.

[Desert Walker]

THE ANSWER!


That is lame Thess...

[Socrates]

The truth is all [url="http://www.davidickebooks.co.uk/"]here![/url]

Beware the lizard-men and their reptilian agenda!

[Anthony]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='984592' date='May 18 2006, 01:39 PM']
Not anymore.
[/quote]

I don't believe for a second that you are no longer an atheist.

[GenesiusMMVI]

[quote name='Desert Walker' post='984548' date='May 18 2006, 01:37 PM']
The following quote is taken from a much LONGER article on www.theconservativevoice.com.

[url="http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/7762.html"]The Conservative Voice -- Eyewitness, William Rodriquez, gives his story[/url]
Oh freaking carp...
[/quote]


One guy heard an explosion so it MUST be true. Please. The thing about this particular crack-pot theory is how disrespectful it is to those who died that day. Just plain sick.

Enjoy this. I think I've posted it before but good stuff, no less. 300 experts and Orgs have pretty much debunked all the schtoopid theories.

[url="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html"]http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html[/url]

Cheers

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Desert Walker' post='986973' date='May 22 2006, 08:00 AM']
According to this reasoning one could even MORE easily say:

"The fact that the bible is over 1000 years old makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that Vatican II is over 60 years old makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that the Universe is older than the last 5 minutes makes me doubt its reliability."

"The fact that, currently, ALL eyewitness accounts of the events of 911 are almost 4 years old makes me doubt their reliability."
please.... you have to be capable of doing better than that.
That's actually (and happily I might add)
not true.
[/quote]


Yay, let's put words into people's mouth... Or one could actually ask for clarification, but that requires reasoning.

I'll restate "The concept that it took this person 4 years to come foward (though the article states he's spent it trying to talk to the govt and they have been ignoring him ) in such a way to what I have read makes me wonder to the realibility of the source"

[Desert Walker]

I'm not putting words in your mouth because I didn't say that you said anything you didn't say. All I said was "according to this reasoning one could even more easily say..." so on and so forth.

I still don't see how a time span between the act of witnessing, and the recording of the account of the eyewitness testimony, invalidates the testimony of the eyewitness. If a time span destroys the credibility of an eyewitness (especially one who is not elderly, held a supervisory job in the WTC, at which he worked for 20 years, and is currently an energetic philanthropist) then why does a court of law admit eyewitness testimonies older than four years? Apparently they shouldn't I guess.

So what's the age limit? One year? One month? One week? One day? A couple of minutes?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[styx chyx]

Really interesing site:

[url="http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk"]http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk[/url]

click on the flags on the bottom, whatever language you'd like to view the page in, and a flash presentation will open.

VERY interesting...

[jezic]

it hasn't been 60 years since Vatican II

and

WHy would you want the government to do an investigation? If something happened they are likely in on it...

[Winchester]

What would be the purpose of creating an explosion prior to a strike from an aircraft?

When were alarms transmitted?

A "smoke explosion" is a misnomer, unlikely to be used by an experienced firefighter. Without combustion, there is no smoke.

The towers were made of lightweight construction with sprayed on fireproofing. Once the fireproofing was removed (by the jet impact) a siginificant fire load would have produced enough fire to distort the beams enough to cause problems. Steel is not combustible, but it is affected greatly by fire.

When something collapses, it displaces air, and thus smoke and fire. Collapses are loud, and each successive collapse would have made sound. Quotes from the fireground do not make a good argument without investigation as to the cause of the perceptions.

Secondary devices simply wouldn't be neccesary to bring down a building constructed like WTC. In fact, the other buildings in the area that collapsed were of similar lightweight construction, and suffered pretty much ordinary fires, unextinguished due to the earlier collapses. A building that was under the same strain as those that collapsed, yet was of pre WWII (heavy) construction, did not collapse. WTC was not the first highrise to collapse or become a collapse hazard due to fire, and it might not be the last, considering new construction techniques, which value money over firefighter's (and occupants') lives.