During Mass

[qfnol31]

If a love for the Liturgy doesn't inspire you to want it to be as beautiful as it should and could be for the sake of Our Lord Whose Sacrifice is re-presented there, then how are you viewing the Liturgy?

It isn't something that should be played with and it is my love for the Liturgy itself that makes me want it not abused.

If you love someone will you let them be abused? Then why Jesus? Or why the Mass where He becomes present?

[YMNolan]

[quote name='inDEED' post='985083' date='May 18 2006, 11:51 PM']
What's annoying to me is the fact that if we did some sort of search on most commonly used phrases on the PM boards, we'd find "liturgical abuse" as one of them...

While I know many of my fellow PMers would disagree with me on this statement - I feel that our role, as laity, should be to enjoy the beauty of our Catholic faith in the Mass and check our attitude/pride @ the door.

What's funny to me is that I'm 26 years old, have been a cradle Catholic my whole life, and have NEVER experienced so much criticism of our Masses ANYWHERE than here on PM...

You may prefer gregorian chant, you may prefer an organ, you may not like holding hands, etc. - but what about the Eucharist?

Let's stop complaining and waging war on what we see as "liturgical abuses" and go back to appreciating what we DO have in the Mass - the body and blood of our Lord.
[/quote]

wow, awesome post!

I see things all the time that would be considered "abuses" at a lot of churches (there's always something). We need to do like JP2 said and change the culture. And getting angry with people ain't the way to do it. The more genuine we are in modeling reverence the more you'll see fellow parishioners following suit. It may take decades but things will change.

PEACE TO ALL!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='986475' date='May 21 2006, 11:58 AM']
If a love for the Liturgy doesn't inspire you to want it to be as beautiful as it should and could be for the sake of Our Lord Whose Sacrifice is re-presented there, then how are you viewing the Liturgy?
[/quote]

Everyone has a different opinion of what beauty is. One person thinks gaudy is beautiful and the person next to him might think simplicity is beautiful.

[Ash Wednesday]

They should have thrown the priest a birthday party after mass.

Any excuse for cake and coffee. Parish cake and coffee seems to always taste just a little bit *better* no matter what.

[Resurrexi]

OMGOSH! Wow, This is really interesting. Once, I went to a baptism of a relative who lives on the East Coast. The baptism was at a newman centre, and I will never forget it! Every two seconds there was a liturgical abuse! From the chalice being made of the wrong materials to clapping! They even sang hapy birthday to some random person in the congregation! It was the worst experience I've ever had at Mass!

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='986612' date='May 21 2006, 06:07 PM']Everyone has a different opinion of what beauty is. One person thinks gaudy is beautiful and the person next to him might think simplicity is beautiful.
[/quote]

God is beautiful. What is most like Him is also beautiful.

I haven't argued for either gaudy or simple Masses, for I love them both.

However, that does not mean that we should not strive for the most beautiful. The Church has established norms. What is closest to them begins the path towards beauty. Only by following those norms can the Liturgy grow in beauty, be it simple or gaudy.

The Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has given us the Mass. How can we say that we know better than She and all the Magisterium who decided on how the Liturgy is supposed to be, and introduce so many new things that were not intended for the Mass? I hear so often people don't want to criticize the Magisterium and this is good. But we implicitly do so by making the Mass whatever we want.

And when the Mass is what we want and it contradicts the Church, it is no longer us really giving ourselves on the altar.


[quote name='YMNolan' post='986593' date='May 21 2006, 05:42 PM']wow, awesome post!

I see things all the time that would be considered "abuses" at a lot of churches (there's always something). We need to do like JP2 said and change the culture. And getting angry with people ain't the way to do it. The more genuine we are in modeling reverence the more you'll see fellow parishioners following suit. It may take decades but things will change.

PEACE TO ALL![/quote]

I've actually only been angered once or twice, personally (those were rare occassions where things during the Mass were not supposed to be done), and I'm one of the more outspoken people on here.

I don't think that getting angry is the way to do it, but we should speak out against such injustice. I bet you speak out against the injustice of the state quite often, if not I apologize for saying it, though I think we all do from time to time.

I personally try to be as reverent and genuine as I possibly can, and it does help some...However, the attitude that most people take to Mass both flows from and leads to the air of the Liturgy itself. Both the attitude must be corrected and Liturgical abuses.

Now that I've said a lot, has anyone noticed that this thread wasn't necessarily about complaining, but a question that not really anyone has answered...It somehow got to be about how the Mass is, and oddly enough, most people took the first post as a complaint...I don't see it.


[quote]You may prefer gregorian chant, you may prefer an organ, you may not like holding hands, etc. - but what about the Eucharist?

Let's stop complaining and waging war on what we see as "liturgical abuses" and go back to appreciating what we DO have in the Mass - the body and blood of our Lord.[/quote]

By the way inDEED, would you too agree that the Church has set forth Gregorian Chant as the music most proper and talked about not holding hands and using an organ versus a piano because She knows that those things help foster a deeper devotion, help the mind and heart remain more present, to the Blessed Sacrament?

The Liturgy should be within certain bounds because that is what is best.

Also, you may not have trouble, which is fine, but I have a hard time going to Masses that are the way they are around me most of the time. And I love the Mass and assist at it more than any of my friends, period. It's just how it goes.

We who are there most often are often the most misunderstood and least respected...

Such is life.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='986865' date='May 21 2006, 11:48 PM']
God is beautiful. What is most like Him is also beautiful.

I haven't argued for either gaudy or simple Masses, for I love them both.

However, that does not mean that we should not strive for the most beautiful. The Church has established norms. What is closest to them begins the path towards beauty. Only by following those norms can the Liturgy grow in beauty, be it simple or gaudy.

The Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has given us the Mass. How can we say that we know better than She and all the Magisterium who decided on how the Liturgy is supposed to be, and introduce so many new things that were not intended for the Mass? I hear so often people don't want to criticize the Magisterium and this is good. But we implicitly do so by making the Mass whatever we want.

And when the Mass is what we want and it contradicts the Church, it is no longer us really giving ourselves on the altar.
[/quote]

My only beef is with people who try to elevate personal preferences to a matter of liturgical abuses when there are actually no liturgical abuses present. (I'm speking generally here and not making an accusation.)

[Lil Red]

[quote name='inDEED' post='985083' date='May 18 2006, 10:51 PM']What's annoying to me is the fact that if we did some sort of search on most commonly used phrases on the PM boards, we'd find "liturgical abuse" as one of them...

While I know many of my fellow PMers would disagree with me on this statement - I feel that our role, as laity, should be to enjoy the beauty of our Catholic faith in the Mass and check our attitude/pride @ the door.

What's funny to me is that I'm 26 years old, have been a cradle Catholic my whole life, and have NEVER experienced so much criticism of our Masses ANYWHERE than here on PM...

You may prefer gregorian chant, you may prefer an organ, you may not like holding hands, etc. - but what about the Eucharist?

Let's stop complaining and waging war on what we see as "liturgical abuses" and go back to appreciating what we DO have in the Mass - the body and blood of our Lord.[/quote]great post! i have found myself being more critical at Mass since i've been at PM more than any other time in my life. so much so to the point of not being able to focus on the Eucharist - the source and summit of the Christian faith. when asked about what he would do about priest's sexual sins, wasn't it St. Francis of Assisi who said something like "I would go forth and receive my Lord from the priest's holy hands"? or something like that. and that was when the priests' scandals were so much more worse than they are now!

[quote name='YMNolan' post='986593' date='May 21 2006, 05:42 PM']I see things all the time that would be considered "abuses" at a lot of churches (there's always something). We need to do like JP2 said and change the culture. And getting angry with people ain't the way to do it. The more genuine we are in modeling reverence the more you'll see fellow parishioners following suit. It may take decades but things will change.

PEACE TO ALL![/quote]agreed - another good post!

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='987103' date='May 22 2006, 09:39 AM']
great post! i have found myself being more critical at Mass since i've been at PM more than any other time in my life. so much so to the point of not being able to focus on the Eucharist - the source and summit of the Christian faith. when asked about what he would do about priest's sexual sins, wasn't it St. Francis of Assisi who said something like "I would go forth and receive my Lord from the priest's holy hands"? or something like that. and that was when the priests' scandals were so much more worse than they are now!
[/quote]

I agree. I find inDEED's insights to be very refreshing, to be honest.

I have heard a similar story where they brought St. Francis to the house of a corrupt priest, apparently they wanted Francis to put the fear of God in him. Instead, St. Francis knelt and kissed the priest's hands, and reminded his fellow bretheren that they were the hands that give the blessed sacrament. The priest was moved to conversion.

I don't mean to downplay the necessity of sacredness in the liturgy -- but it is important to not get so distracted by watchdogging that you lose sight of the summit, the eucharist. I think, also, matters of liturgical abuse can be a potential stumbling block for souls that are scrupulous -- and I think there are quite a few people on PM that are scrupulous.

In my personal experience, I find it easy for things to get overly-complicated and I feel in out over my head, as far as matters of faith are concerned. So don't forget to see the forest for the trees.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='987068' date='May 22 2006, 10:15 AM']My only beef is with people who try to elevate personal preferences to a matter of liturgical abuses when there are actually no liturgical abuses present. (I'm speking generally here and not making an accusation.) [/quote]

My beef is those who make their personal preferences the Liturgical abuses...These people bother me more than the Priests because they are much more frequent and have no place to.

I an ignore hundreds of abuses in a month, but not when it's the laity who's doing it. That's what bothers me so much I will speak out, for the Liturgy isn't our place to determine, but for us to lay ourselves on the altar. And if it becomes a place where we don't give ourselves, it's lost so much of its meaning.

[dandy777]

I think that as long as it was done with love and the priest himself didn't feel uncomfortable about it, it is ok to me. I'm sure if Jesus was in the congragation in person, he himself would have started singing "Happy Birthday" ... Have you ever thought that maybe what you are calling "Liturgical Abuse" could have been a way God used to attract some other people by witnessing the flock's love for the shepherd or unity within the community?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='986637' date='May 21 2006, 05:32 PM']
OMGOSH! Wow, This is really interesting. Once, I went to a baptism of a relative who lives on the East Coast. The baptism was at a newman centre, and I will never forget it! Every two seconds there was a liturgical abuse! From the chalice being made of the wrong materials to clapping! They even sang hapy birthday to some random person in the congregation! It was the worst experience I've ever had at Mass!
[/quote]
There's a Newman Center at University of Arizona where I'll likely be going in the Fall. Needless to say I won't be participating :

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='992480' date='May 29 2006, 05:42 PM']
There's a Newman Center at University of Arizona where I'll likely be going in the Fall. Needless to say I won't be participating :
[/quote]


Gee that's too bad.

1. Not all Newman Centers are full of liturgical abuse!

2. Even if they are less than perfect you could be a positive influence and could be a part of change for the better.

I hope you'll reconsider discounting it fully until you've had time to check it out etc.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Well, even though Mass wasn't over, and you just recieved Holy Communion, it could have been worse. I agree and disagree that it was nonreverant, but, let me tell you my story.

During the homily this past Sunday, the priest at my parish, is from Africa. Anyway, so he was talking about how we need to become saints and follow Christ up to Heaven. So, he started to sing, "Oh, when the saints, go marching in..." He repeated that twice. Everyone started to clap and sing along. To me, I don't know, I saw some point, but, I don't know. I guess that is better than the happy birthday, but, from my point of view, you celebrated the Eucharist, I think singing the happy birthday was ok, but, it really shouldn't be sung at any other point of the Mass.