KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 [quote name='Semalsia' post='990333' date='May 25 2006, 09:55 AM'] Someone's curse is another's blessing. If you can think rationally and prefer the "illness" to the "health", then it can't be called an illness. Or would you claim that homosexuals have trouble making rational decisions? [/quote] What you are saying is truth is relative, whats true for one is not true for another. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative.[/color] Truth is always true no matter who, or how many believe in the truth. The truth remains Homosexuality is a mental disorder. An illness is still a illness even if the person who has it is can not or will not see they have a problem, and it is not a rational decision to prefer or fail to see a mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='990375' date='May 25 2006, 11:50 AM'] What you are saying is truth is relative, whats true for one is not true for another. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative.[/color] Truth is always true no matter who, or how many believe in the truth. The truth remains Homosexuality is a mental disorder. An illness is still a illness even if the person who has it is can not or will not see they have a problem, and it is not a rational decision to prefer or fail to see a mental illness. [/quote] And you're stating opinion not truth. No one who thinks homosexuality is a mental disorder has shown any tangible proof. It is perpetuating a bias and a prejudice that does not help homosexuals. And it is not the position of the Church to presume mental illness on top of the cross they have to bear already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' post='990568' date='May 25 2006, 03:00 PM'] And you're stating opinion not truth. No one who thinks homosexuality is a mental disorder has shown any tangible proof. It is perpetuating a bias and a prejudice that does not help homosexuals. And it is not the position of the Church to presume mental illness on top of the cross they have to bear already. [/quote] Fact: Homosexuality is a disorder Fact: Sexuality is determined in the brain, no where else. Also it is a bit hypocritical of you to called those who do not agree with your opinon, "prejudice" after you demanded a apology from Apotheoun for comparing you to church dissentients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uruviel Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 this is a stupid question, but if it's a disorder, how do you get it and can you treat it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Homosexuality is disturbing but it is also something that we can't control despite how much we might want to. My view is that we should do our best to alow those that are homosexual to be that way without letting it bother us. Because it is a disorder that some people do have and unless they do or atempt to do something to the rest of us that arnt we should not be complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='990589' date='May 25 2006, 04:46 PM'] Fact: Homosexuality is a disorder Fact: Sexuality is determined in the brain, no where else. Also it is a bit hypocritical of you to called those who do not agree with your opinon, "prejudice" after you demanded a apology from Apotheoun for comparing you to church dissentients. [/quote] Apotheoun was comparing me to someone who was advocating for the gay lifestyle, therefore against Church teachings. I've simply stated that homosexuals can be mentally healthy. BTW I've backed up "my opinion" by showing that the Church doesn't take a stance that objectively disordered equals mental disorder. If you're offended by my calling your opinion that, then reference some facts instead of claiming them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='990261' date='May 25 2006, 07:43 AM'] How can you be disordered and healthy at the same time? Seems like an oxymoron to me. [/quote] Exactly. And therein lies the problem with that argument. It is nothing but contradictions. If is nonsensical to claim that homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, yet at the same time are healthy. [quote name='hot stuff' post='990255' date='May 25 2006, 07:25 AM'] If I "added" mental its because its the topic of the thread. speaking of calling folks out on adding stuff, when did I ever say it was a physical problem? I never did because I never would. What I've stated is not modernism it is in line with Catholic teaching. While homosexual desires are objectively disordered, a person can have them and be considered mentally healthy. [/quote] We agree that homosexual inclinations are disordered. If the disorder is not mental, and is not physical, this begs the question of what kind of disorder is it?? It seems the only logical answer left would be that the disorder is somehow purely spiritual - that it is an evil deliberate choice of the soul against the natural order, or is a curse directly imprinted on the soul by a demon or such. Yet somehow I doubt this is the route you wish to argue. [quote name='heavenseeker' post='990640' date='May 25 2006, 05:23 PM'] Homosexuality is disturbing but it is also something that we can't control despite how much we might want to. My view is that we should do our best to alow those that are homosexual to be that way without letting it bother us. Because it is a disorder that some people do have and unless they do or atempt to do something to the rest of us that arnt we should not be complaining. [/quote] This is pure nonsense. As Christians we are called to admonish the sinner. Out of charity, we are not to let the sinner continue in their sin. Your view here is not Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' post='990192' date='May 25 2006, 05:57 AM'] hot stuff is doing just fine on his own. And he is nowhere near Modernism. [/quote] What is your opinion on this? Actually, following what he said about it not being a mental disorder...well, see what Socrates pointed out in his last post? Also, hot stuff, Todd did not compare you to a heretic...he said your view was similar. And according to that one post, it was. You added mental in your mind, but Todd specifically left it out. According to your next post, your view would be similar to that one woman's. It seems perhaps it is not, but you haven't admitted it yet, which then leads to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' post='990661' date='May 25 2006, 05:49 PM'] Apotheoun was comparing me to someone who was advocating for the gay lifestyle, therefore against Church teachings. I've simply stated that homosexuals can be mentally healthy. BTW I've backed up "my opinion" by showing that the Church doesn't take a stance that objectively disordered equals mental disorder. If you're offended by my calling your opinion that, then reference some facts instead of claiming them. [/quote] I'm offended by nothing you've said. I was simpley pointing out the fact that not only is your opinion flawed but you have also made a hypocritical statement. Acussing your Phatmass brethern of being prejudice when they have not spoken one word of hate is benethe you, and if it offends anything is it your character. But you have proven that homosexuality is also objectively disordered which is still a psychological disorder, good for you. You still fail to prove that homosexuality is not a mental disorder, or where the Church says it is not. ps, psychological = mental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 wow you guys are heavily into this debate... My opinion (let it fall amonst you where it may): Homosexuality is a mental disorder, but a disorder IS NOT an illness. An illness is something that is contracted, such as Alzheimer's. A disorder is something that one is born with, such as Down Syndrom. Saying that a homosexual is "mentally ill" implies that, had their environment been different grow up, they would not have had homosexual tendancies, because they would not have been "exposed" to the ideas that made them realize that they're homosexual. Granted, there are numerous cases where people become homosexual (or bisexual) for reasons other than having this disorder, such as want of attention. Also, there are cases where homosexuals will swear up and down that they are not homosexual because they have repressed their inner tendancies so much for various reasons. Obviously, in this day and age, the latter case is dwindling in number and the former is growing. Although in that latter case the severe repression seems to result in the homosexual not sinning, I think that it can be unhealthy for most to repress severely. They must come to terms with it, accept it, and then repress it. Otherwise, you have a homophobic homosexual. That is what I would label as some sort of mental illness. I would say that homosexuality, or any disorder, is not concretely bound to being mentally ill. Mental illness is where you are essentially not in control of what your mind does, just as physical illness you are not in complete control of what your body does. A mental disorder is where you are not in control of what specifically your mind is, just as a physical disorder is where you are not in control of what specifically your body is (poor wording in that last sentance: "[u]what[/u] your mind/body is" kinda more like what it's attributes are). Summarily, I seem to taking hot stuff's opinion that one can be homosexual and mentally healthy at the same time, just as one can have nothing else mentally wrong with them, but still be mentally ill (trust me on that last part...) Really, though, I think we're all just debating about what specific words mean. Otherwise, we're probably in agreement since the CCC is fairly clear on this issue. IMHO lust is mostly another topic. Lust is wrong in all cases, although, just as heterosexual acts are "natural" and homosexual acts are "unnatural," likewise is lust divided. Keep in mind that lusting after your wife is wrong, too. Knight - your opinion confuses me (or at least what I think is your opinion?): [quote]But [u]you have proven that[/u] homosexuality is also objectively disordered which [u]is still a psychological disorder[/u], good for you. You still [u]fail to prove that homosexuality is not a mental disorder[/u], or where the Church says it is not. [u]ps, psychological = mental[/u][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' post='990673' date='May 25 2006, 07:13 PM'] This is pure nonsense. As Christians we are called to admonish the sinner. Out of charity, we are not to let the sinner continue in their sin. Your view here is not Catholic. [/quote] we are also not to judge people and by calling my non-Catolic because of what i said is judging me for my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='Franimus' post='990884' date='May 26 2006, 06:44 AM'] Knight - your opinion confuses me (or at least what I think is your opinion?): [/quote] I confuse ppl offen... objectively disordered would be a psychological disorder or mental disorder. According to good ol Webster Ob·jec·tive·ly adv. In the manner or state of an object; as, a determinate idea objectively [color="#FF0000"]in the mind[/color]. Jamie has yet to show where the Church says homosexuality is [u]not[/u] a mental/psychological disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='991087' date='May 26 2006, 02:16 PM'] I confuse ppl offen... objectively disordered would be a psychological disorder or mental disorder. According to good ol Webster Ob·jec·tive·ly adv. In the manner or state of an object; as, a determinate idea objectively [color="#FF0000"]in the mind[/color]. Jamie has yet to show where the Church says homosexuality is [u]not[/u] a mental/psychological disorder. [/quote] You won't find it. The Church does not (except in very rare instances) define in the negative. It normally will define in the positive and remain silent through negative definition. Incidentally, hot stuff is spot on with his assessment, thus far, it is catechetical and it is consistent with accepted Catholic thought. The impotice is not on hot stuff to prove it right, but rather it is upon you all to prove it wrong. And Zach, I am not getting into this debate. Sorry, to disappoint you.....I know that you want to argue the inerrancy/infalliblity of the Catechism more......but I am not inclined to do so, in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 [quote name='heavenseeker' post='990937' date='May 26 2006, 08:03 AM'] we are also not to judge people and by calling my non-Catolic because of what i said is judging me for my opinion [/quote] I wasn't calling [b]you[/b] non-Catholic; I was simply pointing out that your view that "we should do our best to alow those that are homosexual to be that way" is not a Catholic view. As Catholics, we are called to preach the truth about sinful behavior and to admonish the sinner (one of the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy). We should encourage the sinner to turn from his sin (as Christ did), rather than simply allowing the sinner to continue in his sin. "Not judging," properly understood means that we do not judge the state of another person's soul - it does not mean that we cannot correctly judge certain actions, or ideas, to be wrong. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: [quote]Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters [b]nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind[/b] nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.[/quote] St. Paul is being rather "judgmental" there, isn't he? [quote name='Cam42' post='991118' date='May 26 2006, 01:31 PM'] You won't find it. The Church does not (except in very rare instances) define in the negative. It normally will define in the positive and remain silent through negative definition. Incidentally, hot stuff is spot on with his assessment, thus far, it is catechetical and it is consistent with accepted Catholic thought. The impotice is not on hot stuff to prove it right, but rather it is upon you all to prove it wrong. And Zach, I am not getting into this debate. Sorry, to disappoint you.....I know that you want to argue the inerrancy/infalliblity of the Catechism more......but I am not inclined to do so, in this thread. [/quote] As I've pointed out before, unless you can provide a list of conditions defined as "mental disorders" by the catechism, this "argument by silence" is without merit. If an "objective disorder" lies in the mind, it can be correctly considered mental. Your side has claimed the disorder is not of the mind, yet you have not explained where you consider the disorder to lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 We have no right in this thread no matter what our view is on the subject. Homosexuality is most of the time caused by a chemical disorder in the brain, yes a few cases are the choice of the individual but not very many. Homophobs are just uncomfertable because they cant handle that other people have a unnatural sexual preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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