Homosexuality

[AngelofJesus]

Heterosexuality is a Mac. You plug and you play. While homsexuality is a PC. You plug and you pray that it works out.
Therefore, a Mac is ordered and PC is disordered.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='984970' date='May 18 2006, 09:07 PM']

This thread was originally about whether homosexuality was a mental disorder. You tried to use the CCC to "prove" that it is not - ("See, the Catechism doesn't call it a mental disorder") But using the CCC is totally irrelevent, as we both agree that the CCC does not list mental disorders. It doesn't give the NBA rules, explain Perl programming, or list illnesses of the small intestine either. So the CCC proves nothing on the issue one way or another.


Touting your "Catholicity" has so far proven nothing. All you've done to support your point is provide the party line of a secular, quite un-Catholic organization on a political "hot-topic," while mocking and dismissing opposing view-points, at the same time proclaiming how "Catholic" you are.

Pathetic indeed.
[/quote]

It was you who questioned how Catholic I was.


[quote]But as Catholics, we should look at this question in terms of unchanging Catholic Truth, not look to the changing and politically-driven statements of the APA nor to secular "society."

Catholics need to acknowledge the simple truth rather than caving in to political correctness. [/quote]

Its a Catholic board ace. The first step is (and what you've called for) is to establish where the Church falls on the issue. I've shown that to prevent any possible error. The unchanging Catholic Truth is that the Church does not take say that intrinsically disordered is synonymous to mental disorder.

Yet you're offended by my post.

How does one show the unchanging Catholic Truth without quoting Church documents? You may not like it but you can't change them.

So then its beneficial to go to a secular source. And even though I get the subtle sense that you have some problems with the study of psychology, its not evil. Nor is the APA.

And to answer your question. Yes a person can have deep seated homosexual tendencies and be deemed mentally healthy.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='985124' date='May 19 2006, 07:22 AM']
It was you who questioned how Catholic I was.
Its a Catholic board ace. The first step is (and what you've called for) is to establish where the Church falls on the issue. I've shown that to prevent any possible error. The unchanging Catholic Truth is that the Church does not take say that intrinsically disordered is synonymous to mental disorder.

Yet you're offended by my post.

How does one show the unchanging Catholic Truth without quoting Church documents? You may not like it but you can't change them.

So then its beneficial to go to a secular source. And even though I get the subtle sense that you have some problems with the study of psychology, its not evil. Nor is the APA.

And to answer your question. Yes a person can have deep seated homosexual tendencies and be deemed mentally healthy.
[/quote]
I will have to agree. The Church does not say that it is necesarily a mental disorder, simply that it is disordered. She leaves the mental aspect up to those in the psychology field to determine.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='985124' date='May 19 2006, 06:22 AM']
It was you who questioned how Catholic I was.[/quote]
I did not question anyone's Catholicity. I am simply saying that arguing by appealing to the authority of a secularist organization such as the APA (which has many statements contrary to Catholic thought) is not really a very Catholic way to address this issue.

[quote]
Its a Catholic board ace. The first step is (and what you've called for) is to establish where the Church falls on the issue. I've shown that to prevent any possible error. The unchanging Catholic Truth is that the Church does not take say that intrinsically disordered is synonymous to mental disorder.

Yet you're offended by my post.

How does one show the unchanging Catholic Truth without quoting Church documents? You may not like it but you can't change them. [/quote]
This is dishonest use of the CCC here. Nowhere does the CCC state that homosexuality is [b]not[/b] mentally disordered. And saying that the Church teaches as much by not directly calling it a "mental disorder" is fallacious, as I have shown. For that to have any merit, you'd have to provide a list of conditions specifically defined as "mental disorders" in the CCC (with citations, please). That "argument" using the catechism is totally bogus and irrelevent.

[quote]So then its beneficial to go to a secular source. And even though I get the subtle sense that you have some problems with the study of psychology, its not evil. Nor is the APA.[/quote]
As I have shown, the APA changed its position on homosexuality after facing political pressure from the homosexual lobby. The public statements of a left-leaning secular organization on a politically-charged topic have little merit in themselves. The particular studies and findings of individual psycholologists/psychiatrists have much more meaning in this debate, and the statements of the APA are hardly the last word on this issue. There are still plenty of reputable psychologists who disagree with the APA's politicized assertions. (Read the articles of NARTH for an opposing view.)

Yes, I do have problems with much of secular psychology, which is often based on materialistic assumptions, and disregards man's nature as a spiritual and moral creature.
And any organization which holds debates over whether pedophilia should be considered a disorder, and lobbies for "gay marriage" should indeed be held suspect by a Christian.
This is like saying that if the AMA considers abortion a legitimate medical procedure, my having issues with that means that I think the study of medicine is evil.

[quote]And to answer your question. Yes a person can have deep seated homosexual tendencies and be deemed mentally healthy.
[/quote]
Deemed mentally healthy by whom? The AMA? Secular hedonistic society?

You have still not done anything to explain why you consider things such as pedophilia and necrophilia to be mental disorders, but homosexuality to not be. (Other than appealing to the authority of the APA, which now considers those issues debatable).
Homosexual acts may not be quite as "bad" as those things, but they are still definitely contrary to nature, and the purpose of human sexuality.

Homosexuality is an inclination to an act contrary to the nature and purpose of sexuality (as the Church has stated). Insofar as this inclination exists in the mind, it may be considered mental.

Defining something as mentally heatlhy simply because it has the acceptance of society should not be Catholic thinking. If pedophilia became widely accepted by society, would it then cease to be a mental disorder in your view?

Arguing that homosexuality is normal and healthy is part of the effort to make this perversion something accepted and promoted in our society. Catholics should fight this lie, not give support to it.

[Jaime]

[quote]This is dishonest use of the CCC here. Nowhere does the CCC state that homosexuality is not mentally disordered. And saying that the Church teaches as much by not directly calling it a "mental disorder" is fallacious, as I have shown. For that to have any merit, you'd have to provide a list of conditions specifically defined as "mental disorders" in the CCC (with citations, please). That "argument" using the catechism is totally bogus and irrelevent.
[/quote]

I'm being dishonest? That's interesting. (In psychological terms we call that projection for those who are following along)

See you may have a point if I hadn't said

[quote]The Church doesn't assess mental disorders[/quote] Remember when I said it? It was preceded by a "ding ding ding"

Then I proceed with, in the same post mind you,

[quote]The first step is (and what you've called for) is to establish where the Church falls on the issue. I've shown that to prevent any possible error. The unchanging Catholic Truth is that the Church does not take say that intrinsically disordered is synonymous to mental disorder.[/quote]


That's the first step right? What does the Church say? Oh it doesn't assess mental disorders? Hmmm then I have to go to a competent source that does. That would be a secular source called the field of psychology.

And now we come to your qualms about psychology you state that the APA had a debate on pedophilia and what was the result? That it would never be changed [url="http://www.psych.org/news_room/press_releases/diagnosticcriteriapedophilia.pdf"]source here[/url]

Why was it reviewed? Disorders get reviewed because psychology is a soft science .Opinions are offered and the correct decision was made. It is not considered a "debatable" subject.

And your sources for "the truth" on why the APA changed its stance are believed by the same folks who think there were multiple shooters of JFK. Dr Kaufman is entitled to his opinion (as you are) but that is all it is. The truth is that there has been extensive research that demonstrates homosexuality cannot be considered a mental disorder. One of the most reviewed studies was done by a psychologist named Evelyn Hooker back in the 50s. She administered three separate psychological assessment tests to 30 homosexuals and 30 heterosexuals, none of which were engaged in therapy. She then gave their answers to psychologists to assess mental disorder of these sixty samples. Not knowing the orientation of any of the participants, the psychologists could not assess any mental disorders to any of them. This is one amongst many studies.

And to be completely truthful, psychology originally did not consider homosexuality to be a disorder. That was rejected in the 40s.

So yes studies have shown that homosexuals can live mentally healthy lives. Does that make homosexuality less sinful? Nope. One does not have anything to do with the other.

[Cam42]

Gotta love dudes who majored in Psychology AND Theology.....

[PadreSantiago]

[quote name='Veritas' post='984576' date='May 18 2006, 01:14 PM']
+

Please go to www.couragerc.net for authentic teaching on same-sex attractions. There is non-confrontational explanations of the Catholic moral (thus True) position given to us by God himself regarding sexuality, including same-sex attractions.

May God bless you as you seek to do HIS will and be formed by HIM and not the culture!
[/quote]


Don't read that propaganda

Edited May 20, 2006 by PadreSantiago

[Apotheoun]

This topic has been covered previously in the forum. Here are a few examples:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=32721"][u]Gay Catholics, What is the Church Doctrine on it?[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=27951"][u]Homosexual's born homosexual[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=27171"][u]Ran across this article, re: homosexuality and disorder[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26572"][u]The Homosexual Agenda[/u][/url]

For more threads, simply do a search under "homosexuality," or other related terms.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='985615' date='May 19 2006, 08:10 PM']
I'm being dishonest? That's interesting. (In psychological terms we call that projection for those who are following along)

See you may have a point if I hadn't said

Remember when I said it? It was preceded by a "ding ding ding"

Then I proceed with, in the same post mind you,
That's the first step right? What does the Church say? Oh it doesn't assess mental disorders? Hmmm then I have to go to a competent source that does. That would be a secular source called the field of psychology.

And now we come to your qualms about psychology you state that the APA had a debate on pedophilia and what was the result? That it would never be changed [url="http://www.psych.org/news_room/press_releases/diagnosticcriteriapedophilia.pdf"]source here[/url]

Why was it reviewed? Disorders get reviewed because psychology is a soft science .Opinions are offered and the correct decision was made. It is not considered a "debatable" subject.

And your sources for "the truth" on why the APA changed its stance are believed by the same folks who think there were multiple shooters of JFK. Dr Kaufman is entitled to his opinion (as you are) but that is all it is. The truth is that there has been extensive research that demonstrates homosexuality cannot be considered a mental disorder. One of the most reviewed studies was done by a psychologist named Evelyn Hooker back in the 50s. She administered three separate psychological assessment tests to 30 homosexuals and 30 heterosexuals, none of which were engaged in therapy. She then gave their answers to psychologists to assess mental disorder of these sixty samples. Not knowing the orientation of any of the participants, the psychologists could not assess any mental disorders to any of them. This is one amongst many studies.

And to be completely truthful, psychology originally did not consider homosexuality to be a disorder. That was rejected in the 40s.

So yes studies have shown that homosexuals can live mentally healthy lives. Does that make homosexuality less sinful? Nope. One does not have anything to do with the other.
[/quote]
Your information is false. And prior to the 1970s, most psychologists did indeed consider homosexuality a mental disorder. It was listed as such by the APA up until 1973.

[quote]The DSM(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) is the most widely used disgnostic reference book utilized by mental health professionals in the United States.

It's a manual by which all diagnostic codes are derived for diagnosis and treatment - every single physician (an estimated 850,000*) in the United States refers to this book in order to code for a diagnoses. In plain English, what does this mean? It means that for over 30 years physicians have been prevented from properly diagnosing homosexuality as an aberrant behavior and thus, cannot, recomend a treatment for these individuals.

[b]Prior to that time, homosexuality had been treated as a mental disorder under section "302. Sexual Deviations" in the DSM-II. Section 302 said, in part: "This category is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex, toward sexual acts...performed under bizarre circumstances...Even though many find their practices distasteful, they remain unable to substitue normal sexual behavior for them." Homosexuality was listed as the first sexual deviation under 302. Once that diagnostic code for homosexuality was removed, physicians, including psychiatrists, have been prevented from diagnosing homosexuality as a mental disorder for more than three decades.[/b]

*American Medical Association statistic, 2002.[/quote]

(Another article on the AMA's giving in to pressure from homosexual lobbyists quoted and discussed in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=27171"]THIS THREAD[/url])

Rather than give any refutation of these facts, you offer more silly and nonsensical ad hominems about the JFK assasination and whatnot. (This seems to be your favorite tactic - when evidence is offered against your liberal positions, simply attack the sources as right-wing nut-jobs whose arguments do not merit a response.)

The AMA itself, on their own [url="http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm"]website[/url], admits that they removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in 1973. (Thus contradicting your assertion that it was never considered a psychiatric disorder since the '40s.)

[quote]APA Position Statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation December 11, 1998

The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association [b]removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973[/b] after reviewing the evidence that it was not a mental disorder. In 1987, ego-dystonic homosexuality was not included in the DSM-III-R after a similar review.[/quote]

Of course, they claim this was due to "reviewing evidence," however, the truth is that the "gay" lobby began mounting their protest at this time. I hardly find the idea that the APA would be swayed by politics a wild conspiracy theory.

(And since the homosexual protests at the APA in 1973 have been widely reported, if they had indeed never occured, and are merely paranoid fantasy as you insinuate, you'd think the APA would bring forth evidence that these events never happened.)

The fact is that having sexual "relations" with a person of the same sex is not a natural or healthy activity, and is indeed disordered. The proper ordering of the sex drive is towards persons of the opposite sex.
Thus, the overwhelming urge to commit such acts must be considered in itself mentally disordered.
As the APA itself originally stated concerning homosexuality and other perversions(in a saner time): "This category is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex, toward sexual acts...performed under bizarre circumstances...Even though many find their practices distasteful, they remain unable to substitute normal sexual behavior for them."

The only thing that has changed is that now the APA (and secular society) no longer deem "sexual interests [that] are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex" to be disordered or mentally unhealthy. This is based on relativism, the idea that there are no natural norms of behavior (a position contrary to Catholic understanding).

You still have yet to explain why you find pedophilia to be "mentally disordered" yet homosexuality not to be. You have avoided this issue entirely. Do you consider homosexual attraction to be a mentally healthy attraction?

It seems the only difference that can be offered is that pedophilia is a crime under the law and homosexual sodomy is not. But by this logic an eighteen year old having sex with a fifteen year old must be considered less mentally disordered than homosexual acts.
Is psychology then about truth, or merely about confirming the rules of current society?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='986073' date='May 20 2006, 07:31 PM']
Your information is false. And prior to the 1970s, most psychologists did indeed consider homosexuality a mental disorder. It was listed as such by the APA up until 1973.
(Another article on the AMA's giving in to pressure from homosexual lobbyists quoted and discussed in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=27171"]THIS THREAD[/url])

Rather than give any refutation of these facts, you offer more silly and nonsensical ad hominems about the JFK assasination and whatnot. (This seems to be your favorite tactic - when evidence is offered against your liberal positions, simply attack the sources as right-wing nut-jobs whose arguments do not merit a response.)

The AMA itself, on their own [url="http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm"]website[/url], admits that they removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in 1973. [b] (Thus contradicting your assertion that it was never considered a psychiatric disorder since the '40s.)[/b]
Of course, they claim this was due to "reviewing evidence," however, the truth is that the "gay" lobby began mounting their protest at this time. I hardly find the idea that the APA would be swayed by politics a wild conspiracy theory.

(And since the homosexual protests at the APA in 1973 have been widely reported, if they had indeed never occured, and are merely paranoid fantasy as you insinuate, you'd think the APA would bring forth evidence that these events never happened.)

The fact is that having sexual "relations" with a person of the same sex is not a natural or healthy activity, and is indeed disordered. The proper ordering of the sex drive is towards persons of the opposite sex.
Thus, the overwhelming urge to commit such acts must be considered in itself mentally disordered.
As the APA itself originally stated concerning homosexuality and other perversions(in a saner time): "This category is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex, toward sexual acts...performed under bizarre circumstances...Even though many find their practices distasteful, they remain unable to substitute normal sexual behavior for them."

The only thing that has changed is that now the APA (and secular society) no longer deem "sexual interests [that] are directed primarily towards objects other than people of the opposite sex" to be disordered or mentally unhealthy. This is based on relativism, the idea that there are no natural norms of behavior (a position contrary to Catholic understanding).

You still have yet to explain why you find pedophilia to be "mentally disordered" yet homosexuality not to be. You have avoided this issue entirely. Do you consider homosexual attraction to be a mentally healthy attraction?

It seems the only difference that can be offered is that pedophilia is a crime under the law and homosexual sodomy is not. But by this logic an eighteen year old having sex with a fifteen year old must be considered less mentally disordered than homosexual acts.
Is psychology then about truth, or merely about confirming the rules of current society?
[/quote]



The one thing you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is that you don't bother reading what I've posted prior to hitting the quote button.

What did I say?

[quote]And to be completely truthful, psychology originally did not consider homosexuality to be a disorder. That was rejected in the 40s.
[/quote]

ORIGINALLY (I'll type it big so you don't miss it this time ) psychology did not consider homosexuality as a disorder. That (the idea that it was not a disorder) was REJECTED in the 40s. The founding father of psychology, Freud, did not consider homosexuals to be mentally unstable. That perception CHANGED in the 40s. Then it REVERSED in 1973.

Read Socrates. Breathe and read.

Were there protests? Yes. I haven't ever denied that. But as you can see by the STUDY I quoted, it was not lobby pressure that changed the ruling. It was statistical evidence. However the dozens of studies done will not sway one like you to believe that while the homosexual lobby had little power to change anything in the 70s, they were able to bully the APA. But just for giggles. Try coming up with a logical coherent answer for this.

Why would the APA succumb to the homosexual lobby? What would they lose if they had kept the DSM listing of Same Sex Attraction Disorder? What would they gain from it? Kaufman never addressed that. Perhaps you can shed some light.

Its a little hard to debate with someone if you're not going to actually read my posts. And I tire of repeating them three times for you to finally get my point. They were clear the first time I wrote them.

And again. Mentally healthy people can sin. Homosexuals can be mentally unhealthy. But being homosexual doesn't make them mentally unhealthy.

[Apotheoun]

Certainly a person who has good mental health can sin, but that does not mean that a person who experiences homosexual desires that perdure over time (as opposed to desires of a transitory nature) has good mental health.

Quite the contrary, the Church teaches that the homosexual condition itself -- although not a sin -- is an objective disorder, and so it must not be seen as benign, morally neutral, or (even worse) as good. Thus, it certainly seems reasonable to call the homosexual condition a form of mental illness, i.e., a pathological condition of mind and will, because the desires arising from this disordered condition involve states of mind that direct a person toward something contrary to nature.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='986316' date='May 21 2006, 04:41 AM']
Certainly a person who has good mental health can sin, but that does not mean that a person who experiences homosexual desires that perdure over time (as opposed to desires of a transitory nature) has good mental health.

Quite the contrary, the Church teaches that the homosexual condition itself -- although not a sin -- is an objective disorder, and so it must not be seen as benign, morally neutral, or (even worse) as good. Thus, it certainly seems reasonable to call the homosexual condition a form of mental illness, i.e., a pathological condition of mind and will, because the desires arising from this disordered condition involve states of mind that direct a person toward something contrary to nature.
[/quote]


While it may seem reasonable, it does not bear out statistically. So while it may seem reasonable, it is only opinion and its in error.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='986352' date='May 21 2006, 06:34 AM']
While it may seem reasonable, it does not bear out statistically. So while it may seem reasonable, it is only opinion and its in error.
[/quote]
Statistics are irrelevant. This is a matter of truth, the truth about man, which is a theological and christological matter. Christian anthropology is founded upon the natural moral law and divine revelation, both of which reveal the true nature of the human person.

Homosexual desires are unnatural; and as a consequence, they are a disorder of the mind and will.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='986354' date='May 21 2006, 08:45 AM']
Statistics are irrelevant. This is a matter of truth, the truth about man, which is a theological and christological matter. Christian anthropology is founded upon the natural moral law and divine revelation, both of which reveal the true nature of the human person.

Homosexual desires are unnatural; and as a consequence, they are a disorder of the mind and will.
[/quote]


Without the Church stating that something intrinsically disordered equals mentally disordered, you are left with the statistical evidence of secular organizations. Therefore the statistical evidence is NOT irrelevant. Disregarding the statistical evidence without any formal direction from the Church is bending the facts to meet with your opinion rather than how it truly is.

The Church validates the competence and the contributions made by the field of psychology. To disregard evidence because it doesn't feel right is in error.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='986425' date='May 21 2006, 08:45 AM']
Without the Church stating that something intrinsically disordered equals mentally disordered, you are left with the statistical evidence of secular organizations. Therefore the statistical evidence is NOT irrelevant. Disregarding the statistical evidence without any formal direction from the Church is bending the facts to meet with your opinion rather than how it truly is.

The Church validates the competence and the contributions made by the field of psychology. To disregard evidence because it doesn't feel right is in error.
[/quote]
The disordered nature of homosexual desires (inclinations) is an objective reality centered in the mind ([i]psyche[/i]) and will of the man afflicted with them. No set of statistics can alter the objectively disordered nature of these desires, which are by definition abnormal, and are a consequence of the distortion of human nature brought about by the ancestral sin of Adam (See Pope John Paul II's comments on statistics in connection with the behavioral sciences in [u]Veritatis Splendor[/u], no. 112).

Moreover, psychology as a science is not a self-contained and independent reality separate from the Church's teaching on the nature of man as revealed and fulfilled in Christ. That being said, a man who desires to have sex with another man exhibits an abnormal condition of the mind, and if he acts upon that unnatural desire he commits a mortal sin.