Homosexuality

[CoolCatholicgal]

I'm offended that one would think that it is a "mental disorder" because I myself am bi... I do not beleive I have a "mental disorder"... If you think this, how do you think it would have been developed? Because if I am not mistaken all disorders of this nature are developed... It's not a "disorder" it just happens

[Jaime]

[quote name='Desert Walker' post='984555' date='May 18 2006, 12:53 PM']
Still, since the French Revolution was planned inside Lodge meetings, and executed by active Freemasons, it stands to reason that secret societies are behind a great deal of social unrest and revolution.

When stuff like the gay invasion of that mass in New York happens it makes me wonder.
[/quote]

Yeah...

That makes more sense...

[ChrisZewe]

I won't lie - I only read the first post. Nonetheless, I believe that you need [mod]Edit: uncharitable comment[/mod]

[Veritas]

[quote name='CoolCatholicgal' post='984558' date='May 18 2006, 12:56 PM']
I'm offended that one would think that it is a "mental disorder" because I myself am bi... I do not beleive I have a "mental disorder"... If you think this, how do you think it would have been developed? Because if I am not mistaken all disorders of this nature are developed... It's not a "disorder" it just happens
[/quote]

+

Please go to www.couragerc.net for authentic teaching on same-sex attractions. There is non-confrontational explanations of the Catholic moral (thus True) position given to us by God himself regarding sexuality, including same-sex attractions.

May God bless you as you seek to do HIS will and be formed by HIM and not the culture!

[Jaime]

[quote]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. [b]Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained[/b]. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. T[b]his inclination, which is objectively disordered[/b], constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. [/quote]


Notice the wording. The Church does not define homosexual tendencies as a mental disorder.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='984545' date='May 18 2006, 01:33 PM']
Ok folks here's a brief synopsis of psychology .

Psychology is referred to as a "soft science" and with good reason. (as opposed to say biology or physics) The underlying principle for assessing mental disorders is the question "How well can the person function in society with this behavior?"

Can they take care of themselves?
Can they work and pay their bills?
Do they have a social network?
Its a little bit of an oversimplification but I'd rather not produce volumes of text on the subject. For the purpose of this discussion this is pretty dang close.
What makes it a soft science? Because society plays a role in determining what is "mental health". 20 years ago, a person would be considered nutty if he was walking down the street loudly talking to himself. Today we assume he's on his cell phone.

But seriously

While people like to perpetuate various conspiracy theories as to why the APA took Same Sex Attraction disorder out of diagnostic manuals, the true reason they did was the fact that homosexuals were being more accepted in society. Homosexuals were able to respond in the positive to the three basic questions I listed. i.e. They were able to function in society.

The APA was not advocating a homosexual lifestyle. Nor was it endorsing it. The APA is a secular organization that observes behavior. It does not necessarily make moral assessments.

Again to be clear, the Church defines homosexual tendencies as disordered. She defines the actions as disordered and sinful. She does not claim that homosexuals have a mental disorder.
[/quote]
I was a psychology major...about the only thing to do with a BS in psych is go back to school...

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='984568' date='May 18 2006, 01:06 PM']
I won't lie - I only read the first post. Nonetheless, I believe that you need [mod]edited above - L_D[/mod].
[/quote]
Because I posed a question for discussion?

And you were saying what about Catholics being narrow minded?

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='984545' date='May 18 2006, 11:33 AM']
Ok folks here's a brief synopsis of psychology .

Psychology is referred to as a "soft science" and with good reason. (as opposed to say biology or physics) The underlying principle for assessing mental disorders is the question "How well can the person function in society with this behavior?"

Can they take care of themselves?
Can they work and pay their bills?
Do they have a social network?
Its a little bit of an oversimplification but I'd rather not produce volumes of text on the subject. For the purpose of this discussion this is pretty dang close.
What makes it a soft science? Because society plays a role in determining what is "mental health". 20 years ago, a person would be considered nutty if he was walking down the street loudly talking to himself. Today we assume he's on his cell phone.

But seriously

While people like to perpetuate various conspiracy theories as to why the APA took Same Sex Attraction disorder out of diagnostic manuals, the true reason they did was the fact that homosexuals were being more accepted in society. Homosexuals were able to respond in the positive to the three basic questions I listed. i.e. They were able to function in society.

The APA was not advocating a homosexual lifestyle. Nor was it endorsing it. The APA is a secular organization that observes behavior. It does not necessarily make moral assessments.

Again to be clear, the Church defines homosexual tendencies as disordered. She defines the actions as disordered and sinful. She does not claim that homosexuals have a mental disorder.
[/quote]

The fact is that prior to the '70s (with the "gay" lobby gaining power), almost all psychologists considered homosexuality a psychological disorder.

The fact that secular society has become "accepting" of homosexuality and other perversions does not mean that homosexuality is not disordered, but rather is a symptom of the increasing insanity of our contemporary radical-relativistic society, in which "anything goes." Remember, this is the same society that is also ok with sucking the brains out of infants. It is our godless society that has gone insane

But as Catholics, we should look at this question in terms of unchanging Catholic Truth, not look to the changing and politically-driven statements of the APA nor to secular "society."

[quote name='hot stuff' post='984577' date='May 18 2006, 12:14 PM']
Notice the wording. The Church does not define homosexual tendencies as a mental disorder.
[/quote]
The fact is that homosexual tendencies are intrinsically disordered. The Church has clearly stated as much. They are not ordered to the natural good of procreation , but are a perversion of the sex drive. Homosexual desires are not in themselves good and healthy. They are contrary to the good of man's nature, and thus should not be considered "sane."

Catholics need to acknowledge the simple truth rather than caving in to political correctness.

This quibbling over the omission of the word "mental" is silly and pointless. The Church clearly says homosexual tendencies are objectively disordered. If the disorder is not mental, what is it? Spiritual? Physical?
And any scientist would agree that sexual attraction is largely rooted in the mind/brain, so this all becomes a question of mere semantics. (The APA does not disagree about homosexuality being mental, but about it being disordered.)

Start arguing/thinking like a Catholic, rather than like a secularist liberal.

(And would you argue that a pedophile or a necrophiliac is mentally healthy, so long as he can keep a job, pay his bills, and otherwise "function in society"?)

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='984873' date='May 18 2006, 05:53 PM']
The fact is that prior to the '70s (with the "gay" lobby gaining power), almost all psychologists considered homosexuality a psychological disorder.

The fact that secular society has become "accepting" of homosexuality and other perversions does not mean that homosexuality is not disordered, but rather is a symptom of the increasing insanity of our contemporary radical-relativistic society, in which "anything goes." Remember, this is the same society that is also ok with sucking the brains out of infants. It is our godless society that has gone insane

But as Catholics, we should look at this question in terms of unchanging Catholic Truth, not look to the changing and politically-driven statements of the APA nor to secular "society."
The fact is that homosexual tendencies are intrinsically disordered. The Church has clearly stated as much. They are not ordered to the natural good of procreation , but are a perversion of the sex drive. Homosexual desires are not in themselves good and healthy. They are contrary to the good of man's nature, and thus should not be considered "sane."

Catholics need to acknowledge the simple truth rather than caving in to political correctness.

This quibbling over the omission of the word "mental" is silly and pointless. The Church clearly says homosexual tendencies are objectively disordered. If the disorder is not mental, what is it? Spiritual? Physical?
And any scientist would agree that sexual attraction is largely rooted in the mind/brain, so this all becomes a question of mere semantics. (The APA does not disagree about homosexuality being mental, but about it being disordered.)

Start arguing/thinking like a Catholic, rather than like a secularist liberal.

(And would you argue that a pedophile or a necrophiliac is mentally healthy, so long as he can keep a job, pay his bills, and otherwise "function in society"?)
[/quote]

Well you quoted me. Did you not read that I had stated simple truth?

Cuz I said it.

Now the "quibbling" over the omission of the word mental is not silly nor is it pointless. Its an important clarification. The Church's role is to assess the morality of a an action not the mental health of a person. But just to keep this interesting What mental disorder do you think should be assigned to

someone who lusts
someone who has masturbated
someone who has had premarital or extramarital sex
someone who has used contraception

etc.


I answered the question from the Church's stance and from a psychologist's stance. If you think the Church considers it a mental disorder, give proof. You won't find it.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='984883' date='May 18 2006, 05:25 PM']
Well you quoted me. Did you not read that I had stated simple truth?

Cuz I said it.

Now the "quibbling" over the omission of the word mental is not silly nor is it pointless. Its an important clarification. The Church's role is to assess the morality of a an action not the mental health of a person. But just to keep this interesting What mental disorder do you think should be assigned to

someone who lusts
someone who has masturbated
someone who has had premarital or extramarital sex
someone who has used contraception

etc.
I answered the question from the Church's stance and from a psychologist's stance. If you think the Church considers it a mental disorder, give proof. You won't find it.
[/quote]
I'm not clear exactly what sort of game you're trying to play on this thread.

Since you agree that homosexual acts are immoral, and the inclination towards them is intrinsically disordered, that is the important thing.

What are you trying to argue here - that homosexual tendencies are disordered, yet mentally healthy?

The CCC passage you quoted simply says that the "psychological genesis" of this disorder "remains largely unexplained" does not deny that it has a psychological genesis (infact this aknowledges that there is a psychological genesis." - It's simply saying that the psychological origins of this disorder are not fully understood. The catechism teaches on the morality of actions; it is not a psychology textbook. It is simply saying that it is not its place to psycho-analyze the roots of every disorder.
(In fact, your quoting the CCC is largely irrelevent to this discussion, as it is not a psychology book and nowhere gives a list of "mental disorders." Does the catechism call [b]anything[/b] a "mental disorder"?)

The fact that the CCC says the homosexual tendency is "objectively disordered" should say something. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall it using this language with regards to heterosexual "tendencies" - even if they lead to sin.

The sinful acts you listed are disordered, yet a "heterosexual tendency" or "orientation" is not in itself disordered. If it becomes orientented primarily towards immoral acts, then it can become disordered.
Someone who fornicates commits mortal sin, yet the Church does not consider this sin "against nature" as with sodomistic sins. Fornication is a natural act, yet lacks the proper good of being part of a married union.
This is not to say that other sins of the flesh are somehow okay, but to point out that the entire "orientation" of homosexuality is objectively disordered - and thus it can be correct to say it is a "mental disorder."

Your giving the official line of the APA proves nothing. It proves nothing more about the truth than citing the Democratic Party platform, or any other secular liberal organization. There are still many solid Catholic and Christian psychologists (and even some honest secular ones) who still say homosexuality is a psychological disorder. There have been many studies bearing this out.
And the position that everything is mentally healthy and well-ordered so long as the a person can keep a job and pay his bills is ludicrous. There are lots of people with mental disorders oif various kinds who can "function in society." This view seems shallow and pragmatist - "So long as he's an economically productive citizen, everything's good."

As you yourself have admitted, the science on homosexuality has not changed; society has, by becoming "accepting" of homosexual behavior. This (among other things) shows the increasing sickness of society. Is whatever becomes accepted by "society" to be deemed sane and mentally healthy? If society became accepting of necrophilia/cannibalism or some other sick practice, would that practice then become "mentally healthy"?
So according to you, would homosexuality be a mental disorder in the '50s, but not today? Is this a totally subjective thing? (And if it's totally subjective, why are you arguing about it?)

So is pedophilia a mental disorder? Necrophilia? Sado-masochism?
So long as the people involved go to work and pay their bills? As long as "society" is accepting of these behaviors?
(I'm not just being disgusting for its own sake here - this is a serious point.)

And if homosexuality is not a mental disorder, what kind of disorder is it?

[Jaime]

[quote]
I'm not clear exactly what sort of game you're trying to play on this thread. [/quote]

I'm not the one plays games or is passive aggressive. I stated the facts.

[quote]The fact is that prior to the '70s (with the "gay" lobby gaining power), almost all psychologists considered homosexuality a psychological disorder.
[/quote]

You're little consipiracy theories belong on the threads about the World Trade Center. They're about as meaningful.


[quote] The CCC passage you quoted simply says that the "psychological genesis" of this disorder "remains largely unexplained" does not deny that it has a psychological genesis (infact this aknowledges that there is a psychological genesis." - It's simply saying that the psychological origins of this disorder are not fully understood. The catechism teaches on the morality of actions; it is not a psychology textbook. It is simply saying that it is not its place to psycho-analyze the roots of every disorder.
(In fact, your quoting the CCC is largely irrelevent to this discussion, as it is not a psychology book and nowhere gives a list of "mental disorders." Does the catechism call anything a "mental disorder"?) [/quote]


Ding ding ding !!!

The Church doesn't assess mental disorders. But apparently you do?


You offer opinion. That's ok! Opinions are like ascending colons, everybody has one.

[quote]So is pedophilia a mental disorder? Necrophilia? Sado-masochism?
So long as the people involved go to work and pay their bills? As long as "society" is accepting of these behaviors?
(I'm not just being disgusting for its own sake here - this is a serious point.)
[/quote]

Yep yep and can be.

Your point isn't serious. Its pathetic

And I have been Catholic in everything I've said.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='984913' date='May 18 2006, 06:51 PM']
I'm not the one plays games or is passive aggressive. I stated the facts.[/quote]
Nice name calling. "Passive-agressive" - So you're assessing MY "mental disorders" now? (And is "passive-agressive" in the CCC?? - if not, I guess you're wrong then! )

[quote]
You're little consipiracy theories belong on the threads about the World Trade Center. They're about as meaningful.[/quote]
Nice insult. It's not a "conspiracy theory" - it's established historical fact that in 1973, the ASA dropped "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders after intense pressure from homosexual lobbyists.

[url="http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/lawreview/articles/14_2kaufman.PDF"]Detailed article here (from Regent University Law Review)[/url]

[url="http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/eleven.php"]Shorter article describing the 1973 homosexual lobbying.[/url]

The APA has more recently held a [url="http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200306%5CCUL20030611c.html"]debate on whether to drop pedophilia from its list of disorders[/url], and has lobbied to [url="http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-22-2005-70331.asp"]legalize "Gay Marriage."[/url]

Using the APA as the source for "the facts" on homosexuality is a bit like a Catholic going to NOW or Planned Parenthood for the objective truth on abortion!


[quote]Ding ding ding !!!
The Church doesn't assess mental disorders. But apparently you do?
You offer opinion. That's ok! Opinions are like ascending colons, everybody has one.
[/quote]
This thread was originally about whether homosexuality was a mental disorder. You tried to use the CCC to "prove" that it is not - ("See, the Catechism doesn't call it a mental disorder") But using the CCC is totally irrelevent, as we both agree that the CCC does not list mental disorders. It doesn't give the NBA rules, explain Perl programming, or list illnesses of the small intestine either. So the CCC proves nothing on the issue one way or another.


[quote]Yep yep and can be.

Your point isn't serious. Its pathetic

And I have been Catholic in everything I've said.
[/quote]
So why are pedophilia and necrophilia mental disorders while homosexuality is not? Because they're not as "socially accepted"? Because they're "ickier"? Because of the authoritative ruling of the APA? (Remember, they may change on the pedophilia part if politics sway enough in that direction.)

Touting your "Catholicity" has so far proven nothing. All you've done to support your point is provide the party line of a secular, quite un-Catholic organization on a political "hot-topic," while mocking and dismissing opposing view-points, at the same time proclaiming how "Catholic" you are.

Pathetic indeed.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CoolCatholicgal' post='984558' date='May 18 2006, 01:56 PM']
I'm offended that one would think that it is a "mental disorder" because I myself am bi... I do not beleive I have a "mental disorder"... If you think this, how do you think it would have been developed? Because if I am not mistaken all disorders of this nature are developed... It's not a "disorder" it just happens
[/quote]

Please don't be offended, try to understand why we call it a disorder and it may shed a lot of light on your situation.

We all have our crosses. Please read the article "Homosexuality and Hope"
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]

Same sex attraction is developed and a lot of times it does 'just happen'. Sometimes we cannot help who we end up finding attractive. Same sex attraction is a disorder, in other words it is against "order" and performing any same sex sexual act is wrong and an abomination to God. There are a lot of factors that come into play in the development of who we are attracked to. Sometimes same sex attraction can be a symtom of other mental problems, but not in all cases.

A lot of people who have same sex attraction disorder do not choose to have this disorder, it's not biological... but there is always hope with Christ.

[b]Please read "homosexuality and hope" at the above link, and try to read at least a chapter or two in the bible daily... and the Catechism. [/b]

For a bible reference and more detail on the theology of it...
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teac...mosexuality.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp[/url]

On a general note...
Something that I have witnessed over the last 20 years is that as same sex attraction becomes more accepted on TV (especially satan's MTV - the fake 'real' world) young people see it as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle. Also it does not help how the porn industry has pushed girl/girl homosexual acts to where many many young men and even a lot my age think it's cool.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Semalsia]

[quote name='socrates']It's not a "conspiracy theory" - it's established historical fact that in 1973, the ASA dropped "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders after intense pressure from homosexual lobbyists.[/quote]

You repeat that a lot, but it doesn't actually tell us in any way whether homosexuality is a mental disorder. You wouldn't be complaining, if abortion was made illegal after intense pressure from pro-life lobbyists.


I think since 'illness' (mental or not) is just something that is bad for you, if you don't think homosexuality is bad for you, then it's obviously not a illness. I also think this is why ASA dropped it from the list. It's not a mental illness, if people don't want to be cured from it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='985061' date='May 18 2006, 09:18 PM']
You repeat that a lot, but it doesn't actually tell us in any way whether homosexuality is a mental disorder. You wouldn't be complaining, if abortion was made illegal after intense pressure from pro-life lobbyists.
I think since 'illness' (mental or not) is just something that is bad for you, if you don't think homosexuality is bad for you, then it's obviously not a illness. I also think this is why ASA dropped it from the list. It's not a mental illness, if people don't want to be cured from it.
[/quote]

It is the mind that one determains ones sexuality. Homosexuality is un-natural, when something is un-natural it is a disorder. So Homosexuality is a metal disorder. There are many ppl with a metal illness that can not or will not see their dis-order... their failer to see it doesnt prove anything.