Fantasy Magic

[Augustine]

Greetings! I’m new to this board, as you can see. I’m Roman Catholic, coming through the RCIA around two or three years ago. (Please, if this is in the wrong forum, forgive me.)

This is my question: clearly, magic in this world is evil, but what about in games or books? Is Tolkien magic evil? What about Harry Potter?

This is a question I have greatly debated with family and friends, and would like your opinions, if you would be so kind. Used to be, role-playing was a great fun of mine, and I’m a big Tolkien fan, but for a while now I’ve been wondering exactly what defines fantasy magic as ‘evil’ or ‘alright.’ Personally, while I find Ouija boards and such quite dangerous, but I wonder about other games and books.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Augustine

[aalpha1989]

Other people here will give you much better explanations than mine...I just thought I would start it . In Tolkien, the magic comes from a higher power. Gandalf is not the source of his own power. He subjects himself to the higher power (God) and does not use the magic to control destinies, lives. Gandalf uses his magic (not really 'his' magic...) for God's will. Notice in Tolkien, whoever does use their power controllingly, for their own benefit, IS evil.
I don't know if Harry Potter is evil, I have heard a lot of arguments either way...I suppose that it is fiction, and so the magic in it can not be judged either way, because in Rowling's pretend world God doesn't exist anyway. If there WAS a school of 'magic' in the real world, it would be evil (at least if it was like Rowling's). Anyway, that was kindof a half explanation, I'll let the smarter people do the rest...

[toledo_jesus]

if you try to take fictional magic and make it real, then that's not right. But enjoying tales of the fantastic is no sin.


IDLENESS, HOWEVER, IS! Reading for pleasure is therefore sinful.

[aalpha1989]

reading for pleasure is sinful? Are you serious or were you kidding? Idleness is sinful....but since when is pleasure idleness? Playing basketball for fun isn't sinful, neither is reading.

[philothea]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='984037' date='May 17 2006, 07:24 PM']
if you try to take fictional magic and make it real, then that's not right. But enjoying tales of the fantastic is no sin.

IDLENESS, HOWEVER, IS! Reading for pleasure is therefore sinful.
[/quote]


[quote name='aalpha1989' post='984074' date='May 17 2006, 07:53 PM']
reading for pleasure is sinful? Are you serious or were you kidding? Idleness is sinful....but since when is pleasure idleness? Playing basketball for fun isn't sinful, neither is reading.
[/quote]
He's kidding.

Every book needs to be judged on its own, and perhaps really impressionable young people should be supervised in what they read (fantasy -- or anything else!) but there's nothing inherently wrong with fantasy fiction. Especially, as it's called "2nd word" fantasy -- stories that do not take place on everyday Earth. There's no way to imagine spells in a fanatsy setting like that having any resemblance to the pagan/wicca/magic stuff that people attempt for real.

[scardella]

If you're evaluating the magic system of a given fantasy universe in a game, it ultimately requires a prudential judgement. I'd take much greater caution in a pen-and-paper RPG than in a video game.

In terms of books, I'd say the magic in it really depends on both how it "works" and how the book, narrator, theme, etc. react to it. For example, if magic were sourced from the bodies of sacrificed children in a given universe, but the story showed how evil such a thing is, then I wouldn't be worried. However, if it were some hidden power that were naturally inside of people that magicians learned to unlock, and basically the theme stratified people into suckers and magicians... that wouldn't be good.

Tolkien was Catholic, and the magic in his stuff seems to have a different character than most of the DND-type stuff. The magic in it is much more mysterious and less like "from my spellbook, I cast magic missile at the kobold."

[philothea]

[quote name='scardella' post='984398' date='May 18 2006, 08:09 AM']
In terms of books, I'd say the magic in it really depends on both how it "works" and how the book, narrator, theme, etc. react to it. For example, if magic were sourced from the bodies of sacrificed children in a given universe, but the story showed how evil such a thing is, then I wouldn't be worried. [/quote]

[Sojourner]

As long as you know fact from fiction, and don't have issues confusing the two, I don't have a problem with fictional magic, be it in novel or RPG format.

[Augustine]

Ah, while MMORPGs were really what I played, I did some pen and paper RPGs also. I see you are familiar with Dungeons and Dragons scardella, which has been one of the games principally on my mind. I am familiar with the game, having read the rulebook, and I understand its concepts. Personally, I’m strongly against ‘clerical’ magic, or any kind of ‘powers’ derived from gods (lest it be from the true God, but should that really be imitated in [i]fantasy games?[/i]), but I’m unsure about ‘arcane’ magic. My friend (who is also Catholic) and I have discussed it, and I believe we came to the conclusion that [i]if[/i] it was an innate magic within the character (like Tolkien’s elves) and not really a sort of ‘hidden power’ without recourse to demons or false gods, but a natural part of the imagined world, then it would be acceptable.

Even then, however, I wonder if we not just should avoid it altogether, as an unnecessary temptation. Or should we just avoid games in which magic is from ‘gods’? I have a feeling this debate falls upon the nature of magic in itself, and why it is evil.

Any more thoughts? (Thank you for your responses already).

[scardella]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='984435' date='May 18 2006, 09:22 AM']
As long as you know fact from fiction, and don't have issues confusing the two, I don't have a problem with fictional magic, be it in novel or RPG format.
[/quote]

I still think that it can be damaging to someone even if you are able to separate fact from fiction, especially if you're vulnerable for some reason.

[quote name='Augustine' post='984522' date='May 18 2006, 11:24 AM']
Ah, while MMORPGs were really what I played, I did some pen and paper RPGs also. I see you are familiar with Dungeons and Dragons scardella, which has been one of the games principally on my mind. I am familiar with the game, having read the rulebook, and I understand its concepts. Personally, I’m strongly against ‘clerical’ magic, or any kind of ‘powers’ derived from gods (lest it be from the true God, but should that really be imitated in [i]fantasy games?[/i]), but I’m unsure about ‘arcane’ magic. My friend (who is also Catholic) and I have discussed it, and I believe we came to the conclusion that [i]if[/i] it was an innate magic within the character (like Tolkien’s elves) and not really a sort of ‘hidden power’ without recourse to demons or false gods, but a natural part of the imagined world, then it would be acceptable.

Even then, however, I wonder if we not just should avoid it altogether, as an unnecessary temptation. Or should we just avoid games in which magic is from ‘gods’? I have a feeling this debate falls upon the nature of magic in itself, and why it is evil.

Any more thoughts? (Thank you for your responses already).
[/quote]

I can see how MMORPG's would fall somewhere in between traditional pen-and-paper RPG's and regular video game RPG's. When I had my initial conversion, I needed to avoid fantasy stuff like the plague. Right now, I'd probably be ok w/ playing RPG's as long as I knew that they were at least practicing Christians.

In PnP RPG's, a lot of the susceptibility to error comes from how much you wind up identifying with your character and the freeform nature of it. If the cosmos/mechanics of the game implicitly/explicitly wound up being anti-Christian/anti-Catholic, then you should backslash the game mechanics. It's entirely possible to have a gameworld where magic exists but the manner in which it exists manages to reflect a Christian worldview.

[philothea]

[quote name='Augustine' post='984522' date='May 18 2006, 11:24 AM']
[...] we came to the conclusion that [i]if[/i] it was an innate magic within the character (like Tolkien’s elves) and not really a sort of ‘hidden power’ without recourse to demons or false gods, but a natural part of the imagined world, then it would be acceptable.

Even then, however, I wonder if we not just should avoid it altogether, as an unnecessary temptation. Or should we just avoid games in which magic is from ‘gods’? I have a feeling this debate falls upon the nature of magic in itself, and why it is evil.

Any more thoughts? (Thank you for your responses already).
[/quote]
My question is: is reading about fantasy magic actually a serious temptation to anyone? I can think of a whole lot more dangerous everyday temptations than fantasy novels!

I write fantasy (and science fiction). There are many valid reasons for chosing that genre: allegory, symbolism, amplification of themes, and best of all -- disassociation of sensitive subjects. I can deal with serious religious and moral issues in a fantasy setting, and the setting and mythological trappings let me slip in under the reader's radar. In real-world/mainstream settings it is very hard to make any kind of religious statement without people immediately thinking you're preaching at them. There are many well-known Christian fantasy writers, who could not tell the stories they do without the tropes inherent in the genre.

If it tempts [i]you[/i] to go try witchcraft, then yeah, don't read the stuff, but there is nothing inherently wrong with fantasy itself.

[Tindomiel]

I think people tend to have some really strange ideas about what constitutes magic in fiction. I have never, for example, considered Tolkein's elves "magical". Here are several definitions of magic:

[i] 1. any art that invokes supernatural powers

2.magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers

3.charming: possessing or using or characteristic of or appropriate to supernatural powers; "charming incantations"; "magic signs that protect against adverse influence"; "a magical spell"; "'tis now the very witching time of night"- Shakespeare; "wizard wands"; "wizardly powers" [/i]

Now I don't think the "magic" of the elves corresponds at all to these definitions. As far as they (and many other fantasy of mythical creatures) are concerned, theses "magical" abilities are simply natural characteristics that humans don't possess and are thus rather mystified by.

[uruviel]

this is a sticky subject. Magic shouldn't be mingled with. Tolkien magic, is... well I would say it's fine. Harry Potter magic is not because it is witchcraft and wizardry, and what allot of ppl don't know about HP is that the incantations used in the book are REAL incantations ppl use to worship the demons and satan. Soooo I wouldn't get itno HP if your not already. I personally can't stand that series. And I adore LOTR. But that's just my preference. Tolkien's analogy's are taken from the book of Revalations and as you can easily tell are related to the bible. The descision is yours but the facts are here. I didn't lay them down right here sorry

[quote name='philothea' post='984541' date='May 18 2006, 12:18 PM']
My question is: is reading about fantasy magic actually a serious temptation to anyone? I can think of a whole lot more dangerous everyday temptations than fantasy novels!

I write fantasy (and science fiction). There are many valid reasons for chosing that genre: allegory, symbolism, amplification of themes, and best of all -- disassociation of sensitive subjects. I can deal with serious religious and moral issues in a fantasy setting, and the setting and mythological trappings let me slip in under the reader's radar. In real-world/mainstream settings it is very hard to make any kind of religious statement without people immediately thinking you're preaching at them. There are many well-known Christian fantasy writers, who could not tell the stories they do without the tropes inherent in the genre.

If it tempts [i]you[/i] to go try witchcraft, then yeah, don't read the stuff, but there is nothing inherently wrong with fantasy itself.
[/quote]

yay, I love writting fiction! anyways, a temptation is a temptation, try to ignore ALL of them.

I guess you could say there is nothing wrong with the HP magic itself, oh except for the real incantation demon worship part! LOL sorry.

[toledo_jesus]

RM: Why are you casting magic missile? There's nothing to attack here.
BM: um, uh, I attack the darkness.

[journeyman]

[quote name='philothea' post='984416' date='May 18 2006, 07:46 AM']


[/quote]


hmmmm . . . where have I seen that concept recently . . .

[quote name='philothea' post='984120' date='May 17 2006, 07:29 PM']


He's kidding.

[/quote]

Thanks for the pinch hit