Theoketos Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982566' date='May 16 2006, 12:34 PM'] Ugh. That quote is disgusting. [/quote] I kinda agree. So Chris, honestly how does one determine what is obviously a metaphor and what is not obviously a metaphor in a book that is about 1900+ years old written in a odd manner by many authors? (Leading question... Additionally I have a tanget:Hell will have physical properties in so far as eventually even the damned wil be reunited (but so not feel soooo good) with their bodies. I am so happy that you are Christian BTW...prayers do work, people do win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' post='982576' date='May 16 2006, 01:38 PM']you don't know that. Why is that obvious? How do you know that God's plan isn't to have everyone turned into sheep that can talk? (We'd have to talk because we have lines) (in sheep's voice) "Baaahht Loh-oh-oh-rd when did we see you hungry ah-ahnd thirsty?"[/quote] Because God created Man in His image, and turning us into sheep and goats would sort of contradict that, unless God somehow turned into a sheep over the years. Which would not happen. [quote]Hell exists because of a pesky little doctrine called free will. Without it, there would be no hell. [/quote] No, not really. That's all I have to say on the matter, going by what you said ._. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenesiusMMVI Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982566' date='May 16 2006, 01:34 PM'] Ugh. That quote is disgusting. [/quote] It was a joke. Lighten up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982557' date='May 16 2006, 12:23 PM'] But my point is that the sheep and the goats are [i]obviously[/i] a metaphor, because transforming all people into furry quadrupeds serves no practical purpose, whereas subjecting the wicked ones to eternal torment in a lake of fire does.... When the wicked and unrepenetent (sp?) die, however...no, no Hell. The atheist's version of death - unlife. [/quote] I'm not sure what your argument is here? Based on the above, I will take it that you think of Hell as the lake of fire. It would be important, like Jamie said, to not take this metaphor too far. I mean the practical idea of a lake of fire? Or the opposite, of Heaven being in the clouds where we all play harps; they both serve the purpose of getting the point across. That is Heaven=eternal happiness and Hell=eternal loss. I'm not sure what the end of your post meant, that the atheist's version of death-unlife is a hell which is really no hell. Hell most certainly exists, as revealed through Christ and the Church. The soul is eternal; souls that don't go to heaven don't simply 'die' (refering to your part on the atheist's version of death) There is an interesting tradition in the Eastern Churches (I think... at least thats where I heard it from, a greek Orthodox priest) that both those in Heaven and Hell recieve the same 'light from God' so to say. Just those who are in His grace it is eternal happiness, while those who hate God (those in Hell) it is more like eternal loss, or burning. The bottom line is that Hell is not a place you want to experience. John got that through in revelations by describing it as a lake of fire, others have called it a place without God, or wailing and gnashing of teeth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' post='982587' date='May 16 2006, 12:42 PM'] I'm not sure what your argument is here? Based on the above, I will take it that you think of Hell as the lake of fire. It would be important, like Jamie said, to not take this metaphor too far. I mean the practical idea of a lake of fire? Or the opposite, of Heaven being in the clouds where we all play harps; they both serve the purpose of getting the point across. That is Heaven=eternal happiness and Hell=eternal loss. I'm not sure what the end of your post meant, that the atheist's version of death-unlife is a hell which is really no hell. Hell most certainly exists, as revealed through Christ and the Church. The soul is eternal; souls that don't go to heaven don't simply 'die' (refering to your part on the atheist's version of death) There is an interesting tradition in the Eastern Churches (I think... at least thats where I heard it from, a greek Orthodox priest) that both those in Heaven and Hell recieve the same 'light from God' so to say. Just those who are in His grace it is eternal happiness, while those who hate God (those in Hell) it is more like eternal loss, or burning. The bottom line is that Hell is not a place you want to experience. John got that through in revelations by describing it as a lake of fire, others have called it a place without God, or wailing and gnashing of teeth... [/quote] I love that Eastern Metaphor. I also like Dante's Inferno...Chris you would enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisZewe Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='Theoketos' post='982579' date='May 16 2006, 01:40 PM'] I kinda agree. So Chris, honestly how does one determine what is obviously a metaphor and what is not obviously a metaphor in a book that is about 1900+ years old written in a odd manner by many authors? (Leading question... Additionally I have a tanget:Hell will have physical properties in so far as eventually even the damned wil be reunited (but so not feel soooo good) with their bodies. I am so happy that you are Christian BTW...prayers do work, people do win! [/quote] You really can't, but in all likelihood, it's safe to assume some things. I'm thinking of a random number between 1 and 1000000000000. Guess it. If you do, I'll jump off a bridge. While there's a chance that you'll get it right, the chance is so small that it can be ruled out. If the chance comes true, though, well then yes, there are dire consequences for me. The same holds true with religion. But with religion, if we assume that we can't understand what's metaphorical and what's literal, even in cases regarding sheep and goats, then we're not going to get any closer to the Lord, now are we? Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Just thought I'd throw this in here... from newadvent.org on hell [quote]V. POENA DAMNI The poena damni, or pain of loss, consists in the loss of the beatific vision and in so complete a separation of all the powers of the soul from God that it cannot find in Him even the least peace and rest. It is accompanied by the loss of all supernatural gifts, e.g. the loss of faith. The characters impressed by the sacraments alone remain to the greater confusion of the bearer. The pain of loss is not the mere absence of superior bliss, but it is also a most intense positive pain. The utter void of the soul made for the enjoyment of infinite truth and infinite goodness causes the reprobate immeasurable anguish. Their consciousness that God, on Whom they entirely depend, is their enemy forever is overwhelming. Their consciousness of having by their own deliberate folly forfeited the highest blessings for transitory and delusive pleasures humiliates and depresses them beyond measure. The desire for happiness inherent in their very nature, wholly unsatisfied and no longer able to find any compensation for the loss of God in delusive pleasure, renders them utterly miserable. Moreover, they are well aware that God is infinitely happy, and hence their hatred and their impotent desire to injure Him fills them with extreme bitterness. And the same is true with regard to their hatred of all the friends of God who enjoy the bliss of heaven. The pain of loss is the very core of eternal punishment. If the damned beheld God face to face, hell itself, notwithstanding its fire, would be a kind of heaven. Had they but some union with God even if not precisely the union of the beatific vision, hell would no longer be hell, but a kind of purgatory. And yet the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin. VI. POENA SENSUS The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. [b]According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct. However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion. Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. [/b]Nevertheless, Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor. It is urged: How can a material fire torment demons, or human souls before the resurrection of the body? But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth? The reply indicates, as far as possible, how we may form an idea of the pain of fire which the demons suffer. Theologians have elaborated various theories on this subject, which, however, we do not wish to detail here (cf. the very minute study by Franz Schmid, "Quaestiones selectae ex theol. dogm.", Paderborn, 1891, q. iii; also Guthberlet, "Die poena sensus" in "Katholik", II, 1901, 305 sqq., 385 sqq.). It is quite superfluous to add that the nature of hell-fire is different from that of our ordinary fire; for instance, it continues to burn without the need of a continually renewed supply of fuel. How are we to form a conception of that fire in detail remains quite undetermined; we merely know that it is corporeal. The demons suffer the torment of fire, even when, by Divine permission, they leave the confines of hell and roam about on earth. In what manner this happens is uncertain. We may assume that they remain fettered inseparably to a portion of that fire. [/quote] So it seems that both a metephorical view and a literal view of Hell are both Orthodox views.. [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 12:46 PM'] Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'. [/quote] Don't underestimate the power of prayer, or the power of God to work through 'memorized bits of nonsense that (we) spew mechanically'. God's answer to the prayers of PMers could have been in a very different way than you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofJesus Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 (edited) [quote] 1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618[/quote] What does the "the unquenchable fire" mean? Jesus also said, "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire"Matt. 25:41. The pain of loss is the greatest of the suffering of hell. The greater the value of what is lost, the greater is the pain of the loss. "The damned have lost what is of infinite worth, hence their pain is infinite." St. Alphonsus Christ calls hell an "unquenchable fire" because the sensation of burning is the greatest pain which man can conceive on earth. Again, metaphorically speaking St. John the apostle was trying to convey something that is unconceivable. Another St. John, the one of the cross, puts a twist on St. Paul's 1Cor. 2:9, by saying "Neither eye has seen nor ear has heard, nor has it entered the heart of man to conceive what God has prepared for them that love him [i]not[/i]." Edited May 16, 2006 by AngelofJesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' date='May 16 2006, 12:46 PM' post='982589'] You really can't, but in all likelihood, it's safe to assume some things. I'm thinking of a random number between 1 and 1000000000000. Guess it. If you do, I'll jump off a bridge. While there's a chance that you'll get it right, the chance is so small that it can be ruled out. If the chance comes true, though, well then yes, there are dire consequences for me. The same holds true with religion. But with religion, if we assume that we can't understand what's metaphorical and what's literal, even in cases regarding sheep and goats, then we're not going to get any closer to the Lord, now are we? [quote] Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'. [/quote] I think you were more academically honest as an athiest/wicca. You did not answer my question still, because the whole lake of fire seems to be as obvious to me as the sheep thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote]Hell is a place of actual physical suffering, and lots of it. [/quote] Um, I have a question. How can there be physical suffering, if there's nothing physical in it? Aren't souls metaphysical or something? So how do they experience physical torment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 02:46 PM'] Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'. [/quote] ouch. look into ecumenism, if you're Christian you could at least be nice to other Christians. Of course, you probably don't think Catholics are Christian. good luck transferring your affection for this girl into lasting conversion. We'll keep "praying" for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982487' date='May 16 2006, 12:25 PM'] *Nods*...anyway. Yeah. A lot of you probably remember me from awhile ago. And I'm back again o.O But not to start trouble. I have honest questions this time and am interested in their answers. Butyeah...during my previous visits here, almost all of the people I talked to informed me that Hell was simply a plane of existence, so to speak, without God. Not fire and brimstone. Recently, though, I've actually...you know...read things, and I found this: That seems pretty straightforward to me. If you're not saved, you burn. How can you disagree with that? [/quote] Chris, Some people use the word hell to describe 'hades' and not the lake of fire. Hell in terms of the lake of fire is devoid of God, and souls will burn. Whoever told you that it was just a plane of existance and no fire either was speaking of hades or does not know what the Catholic Church teaches. Please check these out, it will help you because they are quotes from the first Christians (before 800 AD, many before 400 AD) [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp[/url] [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp[/url] [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp[/url] [url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] (please explore the other library pages at Catholic.com) You can buy the Early Church Fathers writings from www.Logos.com for $250 or read them for free here: [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url] You can see for yourself the context. A brief history of Christianity.... 33 AD - Christ instituted the Church with Peter as it's first head bishop ( St. Matt 16:18-19, St. John 21) (Roman Catholic Church) 400 AD - The Church put together the New Testament, before this date the only official scripture was the Septuagint (aka Old Testament) which dated back to 293 BC. 1024 AD - The Great Schism of the Greek Orthodox 1517 AD - birth of Protestantism (which means to Protest the Catholic Church) 1829 AD - Mormonism is started 1872 AD - Jehovah's Witnesses is started in Pittsburgh by Charles T. Russell God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' post='982576' date='May 16 2006, 12:38 PM'] everyone turned into sheep that can talk? (We'd have to talk because we have lines) (in sheep's voice) [/quote] Why does a Monty Python episode come to mind? Dinsdale....... Dinsdale..... Dinsdale..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 It's funny you use Revelations illustrate the fires of hell in a literal sense. Look at the rest of Revalation and tell me it's literal... Also, just think about God and hell and what you would do if you were God, not that that's the basis of truth, but with info lacking, it's a good start as we are made in his image.. Did people choose to burn literally? No, they chose to be away from God. It's funny you use Revelations illustrate the fires of hell in a literal sense. Look at the rest of Revalation and tell me it's literal... Also, just think about God and hell and what you would do if you were God, not that that's the basis of truth, but with info lacking, it's a good start as we are made in his image.. Did people choose to burn literally? No, they chose to be away from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 [quote name='Semalsia' post='982655' date='May 16 2006, 01:46 PM'] Um, I have a question. How can there be physical suffering, if there's nothing physical in it? Aren't souls metaphysical or something? So how do they experience physical torment? [/quote] (1) You can dream of burning, can't you? Experience does not necessarily require physical reality. and (2) Everyone is supposed to get a physical body back, eventually. Then there can be real physical pain. PS: Welcome back, Chris! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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