mulls Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 This is from Ironmonk in another thread. luther believed that the Catholic Church was built by Christ, and lost it's way. When luther said that the Church built by Christ lost it's way, luther called Jesus a liar, because Jesus said that His Church would NEVER be overcome by the Netherworld. how does one thinking that the church has lost its way = the gates of hell have overcome the church? can't something lose its way, and get back on the right track? don't people fall into sin, then come out of it, quite often? isn't that what revival is all about? or are things always supposed to be perfect, all of the time? i don't think Jesus said things would be easy. "Overcome" seems to denote a finality.....the church has been overcome and that's the end of it. On the surface, "Lost it's way" seems to denote the same thing.... but remember that something that is lost can also be found. my opinion, nothing else. I just want to know why if Luther was right then Jesus was a liar, as i hear often in these parts. I don't think that glove fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 And the Catholic Church Did.Eveyone else fell to apostasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 can't something lose its way, and get back on the right track? This arguement isn't even relevant unless you stop trying to dismantle the Catholic Church from it's law on down. Why is it that you're concerned about the Catholic Church being on the right track or not when all it seems that Protestants do is try and get the Catholics to become Protestant. That, in effect, would make the Catholic Church no more and then all hope of "getting on the right track" is null and void anyhow. Not that I see where it went off track or anything, despite the repetitive attempts to prove otherwise. Not one arguement has shown anything even close to meaning the Catholic Church is off-track. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 ironmonk was using the word "overcome" to explain it. It isn't the word used in the Bible, observe: And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 He said it would NOT prevail against his Church. By using the word NOT, Jesus has ruled out any apostasy. There were no exceptions in His statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 The Catholic Church in Luther's time had many corrupt leaders. The Church remained perfect, but it's leaders lost their way. I know this is hard to understand, but think of it like this... The United States has had some bad presidents, no? When Nixon was in office (or Clinton, hehehe) did it make the United States, as a nation, corrupt? Of course not. Luther faulted by denouncing the Church, not it's leaders. It's leaders of the time needed denouncing--and in time, the leadership in the Church did solve it's own problems. It was a different time. If we judge humans, we should at least judge them based on the standard of their era--instead of our own. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 luther believed that the Catholic Church was built by Christ, and lost it's way. When luther said that the Church built by Christ lost it's way, luther called Jesus a liar, because Jesus said that His Church would NEVER be overcome by the Netherworld. That is of course if Luther believed that Christ instituted a physical creation named the Church, or perhaps he understood Church to be the totality of believers in the world in a nontechnical sense as it is sometimes used in the NT..? I don't know, perhaps there are some quotes from Luther that show this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 That is of course if Luther believed that Christ instituted a physical creation named the Church, or perhaps he understood Church to be the totality of believers in the world in a nontechnical sense as it is sometimes used in the NT..? I don't know, perhaps there are some quotes from Luther that show this. Your not giving Jesus enough credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 why is that? Jesus founded the church. What is the church? Ryries definition that I agree with is "The universal church is an organism consisting of all believers from Pentecost until the Lords return". I think I messed up the quote some, but you get my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 why is that? Jesus founded the church. What is the church? Ryries definition that I agree with is "The universal church is an organism consisting of all believers from Pentecost until the Lords return". I think I messed up the quote some, but you get my point. Actually, the universal Church is the Catholic Church. The Church is a visible church, not an invisible one made up of believers who believe in different things! That would go against the oneness that Jesus wanted and prayed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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