Somolia

[jasJis]

[quote][b]MOGADISHU, Somalia (CNN)[/b] Fighting between transitional government forces and Islamic fighters in Somalia continued into early Saturday, leading to more deaths in the streets.
Witnesses said at least seven people were killed, adding to a death toll that had already topped 130 in recent days.
Most of those killed have been civilian bystanders. Many were children. Hundreds of others have been wounded.
The heavy battles have been in the Sii-Sii neighborhood, a residential area of northern Mogadishu, with artillery and mortar fire involved.
The transitional government forces are made of aligned secular warlords, while the Muslim fighters are a coalition of radical Islamic leaders, known as the Islamic Court Union.
One prominent leader of an Islamic faction was killed Thursday, and his body remained in the streets for a day, until his funeral Friday. Locals identified him as Adam Galbile with the group al-Furqan.
International concerns about the east African nation have been growing amid reports the al Qaeda terrorist network may have increased its presence in the chaotic state in recent years.
The battles under way pit the so-called Mogadishu Anti-Terrorism Coalition against a union of Islamic fighters who support Islamic Sharia law in the capital.
The anti-terrorism coalition argues the Islamists are allied with al Qaeda; the Islamists accuse the United States of funneling cash to the warlords.
U.S. officials say the United States has supported Somalia's anti-terrorism efforts. U.S. officials have also decried the violence taking place in Mogadishu.[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote]American egos, grown obese on unbridled freedoms and wealth think the rest of the world just needs a good bath and a hot meal. They think that their occasional hunger pang is equal to the thirst for dignity and autonomy in another man's heart. A meal made with your own hand is more satisfying than the feast given by your neighbor.
[/quote]

[quote]Liberals tend to see the problems in Somalia and other similar countries as being caused simply by the rich Western nations failing to share. Simply sending ever more food and money to these countries is seen as the solution. However, until the problem of corruption in the leadership of these countries is ended, the problem will be perpetuated.[/quote]


Sometimes American egos, grown obese on unbridled freedoms and wealth think they can espouse wisdom without ever getting into the trenches to find out if that "wisdom" is actually practical. Its easy to be critical hiding behind the screen of a computer.

I volunteered at a mission in Guatemala in 93. Some of us volunteers worked on a pure water well system. Some worked the infant care center. Some were working with the orphanage. The mission at that point was over 20 years old. When it started, the good Father that started the mission, had one project.

He fed people.

Through the years, he had to deal with insurmountable corruption. He had to be smuggled out of the country several times because he was put on the Death Squad's hit list. But he would come back. And the mission grew. Today they have pure water, schools, and the mission has given the opportunity for poeple to purchase their own land.

What's my point? You gotta start somewhere. You feed them. And I concur with Era mite. No one helps more people around the world than the Church.

[Jaime]

Incidentally for those who are paying attention

Era Mite and I said "Feed them" not "Send them food". While the naive might think those two statements are the same, they are radically different.

[jasJis]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='979816' date='May 13 2006, 06:37 AM']
Sometimes American egos, grown obese on unbridled freedoms and wealth think they can espouse wisdom without ever getting into the trenches to find out if that "wisdom" is actually practical. Its easy to be critical hiding behind the screen of a computer.[/quote]If that's an accusation, you've missed the mark. 'nuff said.

My opinion has little to do with being "American", it has to do with being a Christian blessed enough to live in America and chosing to be a Citizen of the United States, being married to woman who had a Green Card, being family to people in other Countries, and having the sense God gives to common people.

It's awful sad when tough questions are asked and challenges made and they're dismissed with simplistic platitudes and superficial solutions while it's intimated differing opinions lack real Christian Virtue because they're corrupted with patriotism or fidelity to a government.

For those paying attention, I asked 'How do we feed them?'. You can see the responses if you want to trouble yourself to read the entire thread.

Edited May 13, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

And where are the simplistic platitudes and superficial solutions offered sport?

Era Mite said feed them

I said feed them

There's nothing simplistic or superficial about our suggested solution. If others find it to be, it is a reflection of their own ignorance. I speak from experience not theory. I would think someone with the sense God gives the common people would have some respect for that.

[Era Might]

Jas,

You asked what MORE Christians can do.

Please, tell us what you think the Christian community can do more of. I really wanna know. Not external things like petitioning the UN. That's not Christians doing more, that's Christians asking someone else to do more. The Church petitions the UN all the time. We can't control what the UN chooses to do. What more can Christians do besides what we already do as a Church throughout the third world? Should we form a militia and go beat up the corrupt men in Somalia? Should we wave our magic wand and bring their society into the modern world?

The implication of your question seems to be that we, as a Christian community, are radically failing the third-world. If it is, please, tell us WHY you think we are, so that we can maybe get to the root of HOW to fix it.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

I think, as a Christian community, we can always try to INCREASE our efforts in what we do. But the root of what we do will always be humanitarian and evangelistic. Go into the third world, and try to help them in their suffering. Decisions of war and peace, international finances, politics, whatever, are always going to be out of our control. The Church does the diplomacy thing. That's why she has representatives who address the UN. But like I said, we can't control what the UN or a nation chooses to do. We can only do what we do, and I think the Church does an exemplary job of that, even though we always want to try to do it to a higher degree.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Era Might

[jasJis]

[quote][b]1940[/b] Solidarity is manifested in the first place by the distribution of goods and remuneration for work. It also presupposes the effort for a more just social order where tensions are better able to be reduced and conflicts more readily settled by negotiation.
[b]1941[/b]Socio-economic problems can be resolved only with the help of all the forms of solidarity: solidarity of the poor among themselves, between rich and poor, of workers among themselves, between employers and employees in a business, solidarity among nations and peoples. International solidarity is a requirement of the moral order; world peace depends in part upon this.
[b]1942[/b]The virtue of solidarity goes beyond material goods. In spreading the spiritual goods of the faith, the Church has promoted, and often opened new paths for, the development of temporal goods as well. And so throughout the centuries has the Lord's saying been verified: "Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well":47
[size=1]For two thousand years this sentiment has lived and endured in the soul of the Church, impelling souls then and now to the heroic charity of monastic farmers, liberators of slaves, healers of the sick, and messengers of faith, civilization, and science to all generations and all peoples for the sake of creating the social conditions capable of offering to everyone possible a life worthy of man and of a Christian.48[/size]

[b]2321[/b] The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.[/quote]Now that we got it cleared up that we have to do MORE than just send food over 'there', let's discuss.

There is not a legitimate Government there and hasn't been for some time. Different factions are fighting and the civilians are the biggest casualties.

Is the rest of the World Community responsible to go in and help establish a government / civil order?
Why or why not?
If so, what are some of the ways the World Community can help establish civil order?

EDIT:
Era,
I re-read your posts a few times. Christians are part of the World Community and all Governments. There IS NO seperation of Church and State. There is only a limits on the State. Being a Christian means you must be a Citizen as well.

Edited May 13, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

[quote]Do you think that Christians (or specifically Catholics) should have been presssing world powers or the UN to do something?
What could or should be done? [/quote]

[quote]Is the rest of the World Community responsible to go in and help establish a government / civil order?
Why or why not?
If so, what are some of the ways the World Community can help establish civil order?[/quote]

I know its your thread sport but do you think we could stick with one subject without jumping ship to another?

If you don't want to stay on track, then its hard to have a discussion with any real merit.

[Era Might]

[quote]Now that we got it cleared up that we have to do MORE than just send food over 'there', let's discuss.[/quote]

I don't think I ever said that's ALL we need to do. But that is the first priority. Jamie made a good distinction. "Sending food" and "feeding them" are two different things. It's like the difference between being a "father" and being a "dad".

[quote]There is not a legitimate Government there and hasn't been for some time. Different factions are fighting and the civilians are the biggest casualties.[/quote]

Ok.

[quote]Is the rest of the World Community responsible to go in and help establish a government / civil order?
Why or why not?
If so, what are some of the ways the World Community can help establish civil order?[/quote]

I have no idea what the world order is going to do. I know what the Church is going to do; what we have always done. Feed, clothe, befriend, and liberate through Christ.

[quote]Christians are part of the World Community and all Governments. There IS NOseperation of Church and State. There is only a limits on the State. Being a Christian means you must be a Citizen as well.[/quote]

There most certainly is a separation (or, rather, a distinction) between Church and State. The Church is not the State, and the State is not the Church.

Again, I ask you, what more can the Church do? The Church HAS, and DOES, exhaust civil measures. She addresses the UN. She speaks out on behalf of the poor. Cardinal Maradiaga of Honduras has actually outlined 5 practical ideas to get the ball rolling in Latin America, (I believe) such as cancelling their debt.

Christians can't say "We want you to fix Somalia", and the civil powers are going to say, "Ok, whatever you want, you got". The world powers don't care, frankly, what Christians want. That's why we have abortion, and gay marriage, and nuclear bombs, and whatever.

The Church DOES try to work through the state. What more can it do? The Church makes its desires known, and leaves it at that. Then she goes about doing the work God has given her, helping the suffering. You scoffed at my original answer to feed them, but that is what Christians must do. We don't run the UN. We don't have a special phone line to President Bush. We do what we can, we feed people, we clothe them, but more importantly, we befriend them. Should Christians just give up feeding the Somalians because they have no power over long-term solutions?

There IS a difference between asking what the world powers should do, and what Christians should do. The world powers should disarm, but we know they won't be doing so anytime soon, whether the Church wants them to or not.

You still haven't given anything concrete. What, exactly, are Christians failing to do? Besides our humanitarian and evangelistic efforts, what can we do? Even if we did have long-term solutions, do you really think the UN cares? If it did, why hasn't it done what the Church asks it to do all the time, through her government representatives?

You seem to be calling Christians to do something which is out of our control. Feeding Somalians is not out of control. And so we start there, and work our way up. We don't have an army to suppress evil Somalians. So what can we do? What we have always done. Bring Christ to the land, and do everything we can to spread the VIRTUE of peace. That, ultimately, will solve the problem beyond anything the UN can do.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Do you maybe want Christians to organize huge rallies for Somalia, and somehow get the government to bend?

What was the government's response to the immigration rallies? A big yawn. What do you think its response will be for a FOREIGN problem?

Besides that, getting thousands of individual Christians to all agree on a long-term course of action in Somalia is unrealistic. Most of us aren't diplomats. We don't know, practically, how to start long-term changes in somalia. We aren't economists or geopoliticians. That's why the Church has political representatives.

[jasJis]

See. You're starting to run up against the realities of the world. A Christian moral solution is a complete solution. It won't happen overnight, but it takes time.

Troops need to be in Somolia to keep the faction from continuing to fight it out. If the WC can do something, aren't we obligated to do something? We can't walk by and leave them in the ditch because they aren't christian or an economic value or it might involve force. 10 years of anarchy is more than long enough.

Should the US and Britan move into Somolia to keep the factions apart? Should the US and Britan pressure the UN to do increase the UN Troops instead? Should the UN be pressured to use different troops than the ones that have been associated with atrocities?

Having troops move in may not be the best answer, but it's been more than 10 years. Clinton pulled out troops because they became political pawns to 'public opinion' and could not do the job they were supposed to. It's not a perfect world. What if Clinton wasn't continually bashed for having troops invovled as peace keepers and it was admitted the US was the most capable to do something. What if the efforts didn't go toward keeping the US out, but to trust the greater good will be done by establishing order. Almost 15 years have gone by and things are no better, we can't bring food in there, Somolia cannot participate in the world community. Those people need to be fed and need to live dignified lives. They are our brothers, just as the poor in this Country.

The poor and social disorder in this Country are a much smaller problem than the suffering in Somolia. Are all human lives worth while? People have the basics here, but no basic freedoms or dignity in Somolia. If Christianity doesn't make use of the political weight it has, then the Muslims will fill in the vacuum and establish another Taliban regieme as they did in Afgahnistan. What would be worse?

You know why Immigration Reform didn't happen? Because people picked it apart. Too many people said they'd rather have nothing than only part of what they wanted. Those people were playing public opinion like a $3 guitar. The protests were incoherent gibberish. Did they want citizenship or just a legal status? Did they want a way to be here legally or just remove rules? Did they want penalties for employers breaking the laws or just more social programs? Too many people think the US Government is EVIL and cannot do anything even remotely good so they only work to hamstring it.

Drop extreme views that make mountains out of mole hills. Read the Catechism and find out how Christian morality requires us to be involved in Government, not just Anti-Government. Discuss things openly with others to learn and share ideals instead of arguing nuances.

Edited May 13, 2006 by jasJis

[Era Might]

Again, what does the UN sending in troops have to do with what the CHRISTIAN community is doing? Does the Christian community have control over anyone's troops? If the UN wants to send in troops, they'll send in troops. If they don't, they won't. Governments don't care what the Church thinks, as we saw with the Iraq war.

The Church is not in the business of war, so if you're expecting the Pope to start an army and act as the world police, it's not going to happen. That is not the Church's vocation.

[jasJis]

That's your extreme un-productive view. The US is not Hitler taking over Countries to build an empire. The Church's vocation is to present an arena to discuss moral choices. The US is not completely un-Christian. In fact, it is no less un-Christian or imperfectly Catholic than the Church's own Bishops and Priests.

You seem to see that only the Pope could act morally. That is a complete misunderstanding of who and what the Church is. You think Popes never committed adultry, had children out of wedlock, instigated wars, involved themselves in assasination conspiracies? The Church is not perfect in everything.

[Era Might]

Jas, you're missing the point. Your original questions was, basically, are Christians doing enough, and can we do more?

Christians don't control the United States or the UN. We don't decide who sends in troops. We don't decide what kind of aid is given to who. We don't decide how to bring a third world nation into the modern world. And so, as Christians, my first response was: feed them. Do what we always do. Bring Christ in word and in deed.

If you want to ask whether the governments of the world should do more, or do something different, that's fine. But that is a separate situation entirely. The governments DO have control over their troops and over the kind of aid they give to the world.

Action taken by the UN or the US, such as sending in troops, will be judged on its own merits. Christians can't tell them what to do. What we need to do as Christians is continue to set an example of humanitarian self-giving.