The "ex-cathedra" Quandry

[Anna]

That is the best part of being a Heretic, WE get to go directly to heaven

Correction: The best part of being a heretic is that you THINK you're going straight to heaven. Have fun thinking it.

Ignorance is bliss.

Pax Christi. <><

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Ignorance is bliss.

You hit it on the nose. I can't stand protestant websites that try to convert people by offering them garantees like this. What is this, auto sales? This is so annoying, it's almost like they are trying to sell you their religion. No explanations, just rhetoric.

[Dave]

That is the best part of being a Heretic, WE get to go directly to heaven, you guys have to spend time fulfilling the requirements of the Catholic Church unless someone crawls up some stairs for you or another crusade breaks out and some relative shows up with the "Get out of jail" card before the time is up.

Actually, not only do Protestants go to purgatory, but they suffer worse in purgatory than Catholics because they have no one to pray for them, usually.

[Bruce S]

You hit it on the nose.  I can't stand protestant websites that try to convert people by offering them garantees like this.  What is this, auto sales?  This is so annoying, it's almost like they are trying to sell you their religion.  No explanations, just rhetoric.

Yeah, silly us for trusting that Jesus was telling the truth on this one.

Where in the CCC does it cover that?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth elementary school arguement, but He never said that. Do you even know what the CCC is?

[Anna]

If you know what the CCC is, you might want to look up the sin of PRESUMPTION.

Pax Christi. <><

[Paladin D]

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[Circle_Master]

I'm glad mainline protestants are not like that and typically, only the pragmatic churches are which often fail to recognize an inerrant Scripture.

[Paladin D]

Unfortunately, even though I believe many of the viewers and some of the people who preach on TBN are really sincere about serving Christ. Much of the attuide and the preaching is mainly about abundance, wealth, etc. Not saying they don't talk about other stuff (example, the Rapture and the End Times), it makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Circle_Master]

Most of those are in the prosperity gospel which I am strongly against. Many of them end up with broken families and all kinds of other stuff. I really struggle to trust almost any preacher who ends up on TBN.

[cmotherofpirl]

I agree with you on that one. Jesus said take up your cross and be persecuted.

[Circle_Master]

Circle,

This is a long post but will answer your question. I was taught in my Church History class in Catholic Highschool(20 years ago) that the Pope has spoken in Ex Cathedra only twice. Mary's Immaculate Conception and Assumption. . Hope this helps.

Here are a some writings on Papal infallability. It is not that long but it does scoff a little at non Catholic views of Papal infallability. I hope you do not get offended.

http://www.catholic.com/library/papal_infallibility.asp

Here is a quote from a woman who teaches in my RCIA class:

<The Church speaks infallibly in two ways, through the Ordinary Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium.

The church teaches through the Ordinary Magisterium when Bishops (teaching in communion with the Holy Father), especially the Bishop of Rome, teach in ways that lead to a better understanding of faith and morals. The faithful are to adhere to these teachings with "religious assent" (Catechism of the Catholic Church § 892).

There are two ways that the Church teaches through the Extraordinary Magisterium:

1. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra

The Pope speaking ex cathedra must speak:

a. not as a private theologian, but as the supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians

b. in virtue of his apostolic authority as the successor of Peter

c. in matters of faith or morals

d. proposing something to be held by the universal Church.

2. In an Ecumenical Council (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church § 891)

Jan Wakelin>

Here is another from Fr. John Trigilio on the www.ewtn.com Q&A

"Vatican I and II and the Catechism point out a DISTINCTION between ORDINARY and EXTRAORDINARY Papal Infallibility. EXTRAORDINARY Papal Infallibility is when the Pope makes an EX CATHEDRA pronouncement and there have been only two of these in 2,000 years, i.e., the Immaculate Conception (1854) and the Assumption (1950) But Papal Infallibility is NOT limited to EX CATHEDRA statements since BOTH the ORDINARY and the EXTRAORDINARY Magisteria are INFALLIBLE. EX CATHEDRA and solemn decrees of ECUMENICAL COUNCILS are part of the EXTRAORDINARY (not that common) Magisterium and they are BOTH infallible.

The more common ORDINARY Magisterium is the Pope speaking through his encyclicals, allocutions, exhortations and apostolic letters as he did in HUMANAE VITAE and ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS. Neither one of these invoked the EX CATHEDRA status of EXTRAORDINARY Magisterium but both Papal documents contained INFALLIBLE teachings, namely, on the sinfulness of artificial contraception and on the impossibility of ordaining women, respectively.

We cannot limit Papal Infallibility to ONLY EX CATHEDRA pronouncements. Vatican I and II make it clear that the ORDINARY Magisterium is equally infallible as is the EXTRAORDINARY Magisterium. It is merely the MEANS not the END that differs. Ordinary Magisterium is the CONSISTENT AND PERENNIAL AND UNIVERSAL teaching of the Pope and the Bishops in union with him when they teach day in and day out, but not within an Ecumenical Council nor from an EX CATHEDRA statement. EX CATHEDRA is a SPECIFIC and LIMITED concept whereas INFALLIBILITY is a term which encompasses a much wider and broader concept. "

God Bless.

That was a helpful post. What determines an ecumenical council however?

[GodsGrace]

oops...

Don't tell a computer to remember you when you share computers... :o

[jasJis]

JisJis

I just actually READ your sig tag:

CCC 818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

What happened with Trent? I thought we were all ANATHEMIZED now, if I believe in SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE, I'm OUT, right? Trent has never been repealed so, that statement of the CCC you posted indicates that I can see heaven, while TRENT said I was outside the chuch, excommunicated, AND Trent said that ONLY those inside of the Catholic Church could be saved.

Hmm...

More doubletalk, huh?

What is it? Can we reject the Catholic Church, be saved, and still accept the teachings of Trent as AUTHORITIVE? Either TRENT is right, and you must accept the sacraments to be saved, or Vatican II is right and you can reject the sacraments and even the entire Catholic Church and be saved.

Can't have it both ways here guys?

What is right, Trent or Vatican II? Just a simple answer would be nice for a change, NO LATIN please.

If you were patient AND honestly applied your intelligence, you would easily understand how Both can be true statements if you start of with what each of them says.

Here's a simple and colorful logic example for you.

If Trent says the ball is RED and the Catechism says the ball is RED and BLUE, does that make Trent's statement false. Does that make it double speak?

No. A bit of intelligence and logic would lead one to see the ball can be RED and BLUE at the same time.

BALL

As you can see. One statement in it's full understanding, is not exclusive of the other. You are making a conclusion without a logical statement to support it.

He, he. I'm not GodsGrace, am I?? :shootme:

[Circle_Master]

I did a little research on ecumenical councils. I found one thing interesting, the council you often refer to (Council of Carthage), the one where you say you got your canon, well, it isn't ecumenical, but rather a local synod. If it isn't ecumenical, and isn't ex-cathedra, and isn't infallible according to any of your clauses in your summary of fallibility/infallibility, then shouldn't you hold this to be a bit less dogma, and a bit more interpretative like many of the Church fathers views?

as for JasJis, reconcile the two statements to show how they are both true. To brush through it, they do seem contradictory.

Edited December 30, 2003 by Circle_Master