The "ex-cathedra" Quandry

[beng]

Some. Some.

Most don't. Murder is WRONG. Catholics are RIGHT on this one.

Be gracious, accpet the compliment.

Duh, even when you win a point, you can't accept that.

Should I type in Latin to make the point clearer?

Hahaha yeah right.

So, if I DO like murder then I could just switch denomination?

Where's your invisible church now?

Abortion issue is what made a significant number of Christian return to Catholicism.

Even Orthodox has compromised on abortion.

[hyperdulia again]

Thanks for your honest answer hyper. Could I ask why you have those three?

The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were clear definitions of doctrine. They are held as Infallible by all who believe in Infallibility.

Unam Sanctum is a bit of a pickle, it is a clear attempt at a definition of doctrine, But I think what Boniface wanted to say was heretical, but what he actually said (submission to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation) is not heretical.

THIS IS MY PRIVATE THEOLOGICAL OPINION. I AM NOT INFALLIBLE.

this is also my third attempt at posting this, it gets shorter everytime.

[cmotherofpirl]

O yes the Bible is so clear to protestants .....thats why there are so many varieties of you all ion complete agreement on doctrine.

[jasJis]

And this is the message of Christ? I like the RED LETTERS section of the New Testament better, the Pharisees complained that the PARABLES were too hard to understand...

THEY were clairity itself, compared to these murky squiggles.

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!

You got the right answer, you just don't understand it. :D You are having the same problem the Pharisees had.

It is very clear. You don't want the complete understanding of the Living Word a parable provides, you want the narrow definition of the Ink Word.

Maybe you should learn ancient Arabic, Greek, and Hebrew to get the 'verbatim'.

[Bruce S]

The Catholic defenition of 'ex cathedra' and 'infallibility' includes the requirement that the ordained person is working in conjuction with all the Graces that God has gifted us through His Son. That includes Scripture, as well as the spoken word of Jesus who's understanding is kept alive through Apostolic Tradtion, as well as the current and historical working of the Holy Spirit in the Faithful.

Translation:

If a Pope messes up, we just claim he didn't have the authority and the Graces of God were not with him when he issued that blooper.

If your statement above makes sense to YOU as the basis for interpreting anything, my hat is off to you.

Jesus who's understanding is kept alive through Apostolic Tradtion, as well as the current and historical working of the Holy Spirit in the Faithful.

Since we don't agree on WHAT is authentic "historical workings" there cannot BE a definitive agreement on anything.

I like tounges better.

At least when I'm mumbling in tounges, I KNOW I'M NOT MAKING ANY SENSE to another human, and certainly don't ask others to listen, digest, and trust my mumbles. I USE the Holy Spirit daily, Pentecostals are big into the HS, we just don't ask that the "language of angels" be committed and interpreted.

This thread gets weirder and weirder the more people try to define things. Going round and round. I bet divinity school is a blast for those who love spending a week on the meaning of Petros.

[beng]

Bruce S

Followed your link. Gimmie a break here, THIS is your explaination that I'm supposed to be able to FIND the answer to "What is the Offical Ex-Cathedra" list

Can't find official list yet. Those are some of the dogmas.

I think you just proved our point. This is doubletalk, it can mean anything anyone wants it to, and can be changed at the drop of a hat. "In the whole of Revelation of the mystery of Christ..."

Sorry, we don't do private interpretation like sola scripturist.

Read the "Dogmas of the Catholic Church. (Fundamentals)"

below what you quote.

They are INFALLIBLE interpretation of the magisterium.

Have any protestant reach consensus on those interpretation yet?

Not in a million years.

Keep on providing links. First we have the Vatican and it's impenetrable mumbo jumple, quoted for everyone to TRY and understand, then that is "interpreted" in the CCC, which is even MORE obtuse.

Here we go

Another quote from Pax on catholicconvert.com forum

[

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...s-mater_en.html

Ioannes Paulus PP. II

Redemptoris Mater

On the Blessed Virgin Mary

in the life of the Pilgrim Church

1987.03.25

Blessing

Venerable Brothers and dear Sons and Daughters,

Health and the Apostolic Blessing.

...

13. As the Council teaches, "'The obedience of faith' ([bible]Romans 16:26[/bible]; cf. [bible]Romans 1:5[/bible]; [bible]2 Corinthians 10:5-6[/bible]) must be given to God who reveals, an obedience by which man entrusts his whole self freely to God."[29] This description of faith found perfect realization in Mary. The "decisive" moment was the Annunciation, and the very words of Elizabeth: "And blessed is she who believed" refer primarily to that very moment.[30]

Indeed, at the Annunciation Mary entrusted herself to God completely, with the "full submission of intellect and will," manifesting "the obedience of faith" to him who spoke to her through his messenger.[31] She responded, therefore, with all her human and feminine "I," and this response of faith included both perfect cooperation with "the grace of God that precedes and assists" and perfect openness to the action of the Holy Spirit, who "constantly brings faith to completion by his gifts."[32]

The word of the living God, announced to Mary by the angel, referred to her: "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son" ([bible]Luke 1:31[/bible]). By accepting this announcement, Mary was to become the "Mother of the Lord," and the divine mystery of the Incarnation was to be accomplished in her: "The Father of mercies willed that the consent of the predestined Mother should precede the Incarnation."[33] And Mary gives this consent, after she has heard everything the messenger has to say. She says: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word" ([bible]Luke 1:38[/bible]). This fiat of Mary-"let it be to me"-was decisive, on the human level, for the accomplishment of the divine mystery. There is a complete harmony with the words of the Son, who, according to the Letter to the Hebrews, says to the Father as he comes into the world: "Sacrifices and offering you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me.... Lo, I have come to do your will, O God" ([bible]Hebrews 10:5-7[/bible]). The mystery of the Incarnation was accomplished when Mary uttered her fiat: "Let it be to me according to your word," which made possible, as far as it depended upon her in the divine plan, the granting of her Son's desire.

Mary uttered this fiat in faith. In faith she entrusted herself to God without reserve and "devoted herself totally as the handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son."[34] And as the Fathers of the Church teach-she conceived this Son in her mind before she conceived him in her womb: precisely in faith![35] Rightly therefore does Elizabeth praise Mary: "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." These words have already been fulfilled: Mary of Nazareth presents herself at the threshold of Elizabeth and Zechariah's house as the Mother of the Son of God. This is Elizabeth's joyful discovery: "The mother of my Lord comes to me"!

14. Mary's faith can also be compared to that of Abraham, whom St. Paul calls "our father in faith" (cf. [bible]Romans 4:12[/bible]). In the salvific economy of God's revelation, Abraham's faith constitutes the beginning of the Old Covenant; Mary's faith at the Annunciation inaugurates the New Covenant. Just as Abraham "in hope believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations" (cf. [bible]Romans 4:18[/bible]), so Mary, at the Annunciation, having professed her virginity ("How shall this be, since I have no husband?") believed that through the power of the Most High, by the power of the Holy Spirit, she would become the Mother of God's Son in accordance with the angel's revelation: "The child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God" ([bible]Luke 1:35[/bible]).

However, Elizabeth's words "And blessed is she who believed" do not apply only to that particular moment of the Annunciation. Certainly the Annunciation is the culminating moment of Mary's faith in her awaiting of Christ, but it is also the point of departure from which her whole "journey towards God" begins, her whole pilgrimage of faith. And on this road, in an eminent and truly heroic manner- indeed with an ever greater heroism of faith-the "obedience" which she professes to the word of divine revelation will be fulfilled. Mary's "obedience of faith" during the whole of her pilgrimage will show surprising similarities to the faith of Abraham. Just like the Patriarch of the People of God, so too Mary, during the pilgrimage of her filial and maternal fiat, "in hope believed against hope." Especially during certain stages of this journey the blessing granted to her "who believed" will be revealed with particular vividness. To believe means "to abandon oneself" to the truth of the word of the living God, knowing and humbly recognizing "how unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways" ([bible]Romans 11:33[/bible]). Mary, who by the eternal will of the Most High stands, one may say, at the very center of those "inscrutable ways" and "unsearchable judgments" of God, conforms herself to them in the dim light of faith, accepting fully and with a ready heart everything that is decreed in the divine plan.

29. Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation Dei Verbum, 5

30. This is a classic theme, already expounded by Saint Irenaeus: "And, as by the action of the disobedient virgin, man was afflicted and, being cast down, died, so also by the action of the Virgin who obeyed the word of God, man being regenerated received, through life, life.... For it was meet and Just...that Eve should be "recapitulated" in Mary, so that the Virgin, becoming the advocate of the virgin, should dissolve and destroy the virginal disobedience by means of virginal obedience": Expositio doctrinae apostolicae, 33: S.Ch. 62, 83-86; cf. also Adversus Haereses, V, 19, 1: 5. Ch. 153, 248-250.

31. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation Dei Verbum, 5.

32. Ibid., 5, cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, 56.

33. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, 56.

34. Ibid., 56.

35. Cf. ibid., 53; Saint Augustine, De Sancta Virginitate, III, 3: PL 40, 398; Sermo 215, 4; PL 38, 1074; Sermo 196, I: PL 38, 1019; De peccatorum meritis et remissione, I, 29, 57: PL 44, 142; Sermo 25, 7: PL 46, 937-938; Saint Leo the Great, Tractatus 21, de natale Domini, I: CCL 138, 86.

And this is the message of Christ? I like the RED LETTERS section of the New Testament better, the Pharisees complained that the PARABLES were too hard to understand...

THEY were clairity itself, compared to these murky squiggles.

Show me where any protestant has achieved unanimous consent on any scripture passage!!

PS

the "[bible][/bible]" is a Bult board code in the catholicconvert forum.

[Bruce S]

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!

You got the right answer, you just don't understand it. :D You are having the same problem the Pharisees had.

It is very clear. You don't want the complete understanding of the Living Word a parable provides, you want the narrow definition of the Ink Word.

Maybe you should learn ancient Arabic, Greek, and Hebrew to get the 'verbatim'.

You Catholics even have SIG TAGS that need a degree to wade through. Isn't ANYTHING simple with you.....grin.

[Circle_Master]

O yes the Bible is so clear to protestants .....thats why there are so many varieties of you all ion complete agreement on doctrine.

And that is why there are so many Catholics who disagree on so many Scripture passages as well.

[jasJis]

You Catholics even have SIG TAGS that need a degree to wade through. Isn't ANYTHING simple with you.....grin.

As simple as a mustard seed.

I love the simplicity of God, but I don't think He's simple. Do you?

[jasJis]

And that is why there are so many Catholics who disagree on so many Scripture passages as well.

I can't pass this up.

We disagree because of human nature.

Why do sheep need a shepherd? A sheep knows enough to eat, sleep, and procreate, but they aren't individually capable of making all the decisions necessary to live long enough to maximize their potential expected life span.

[Bruce S]

Show me where any protestant has achieved unanimous consent on any scripture passage!!

We don't try to even play that game. Sorry. It is YOUR hangup that every passage has to have an "official stamp of approval" not ours.

Now, personally, FOR ME ALONE, I read the Bible, reflect, try to get the BIG PICTURE and not play Jewish scribe fighting over every "Jot and Tittle"

The BIG PICTURE is SO SIMPLE it eludes all but a few.

You do NOT need man, works, or actions to GET salvation. You don't have to believe anyone, or anything, but that Jesus came, died, and did so to to satisfy God's demands from the Old Testament regarding sin.

Once you confess with your mouth, begin repenting, continue to invite the Holy Spirit [He is the operative element here, not doctrine] everything flows from that. Works come from being Born Again, works do not determine salvation, denomination doesn't determine salvation.

ALL OF US, wasting our time here, trying to impress each other with how smart we are, quoting people from a thousand years ago, trying to wade through legalese, is PROOF that the HS is alive and working in ALL of our hearts.

Otherwise, we ALL HAVE VASTLY better things to do.

And Mary had kids. grin....

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes and no.

We do not disagree on Scripture that the Church has definitively interpreted for us.

However the rest is up discussion and disagreement within the bounds of orthodoxy.

[cmotherofpirl]

We don't try to even play that game. Sorry. It is YOUR hangup that every passage has to have an "official stamp of approval" not ours.

Now, personally, FOR ME ALONE, I read the Bible, reflect, try to get the BIG PICTURE and not play Jewish scribe fighting over every "Jot and Tittle"

The BIG PICTURE is SO SIMPLE it eludes all but a few.

You do NOT need man, works, or actions to GET salvation. You don't have to believe anyone, or anything, but that Jesus came, died, and did so to to satisfy God's demands from the Old Testament regarding sin.

Once you confess with your mouth, begin repenting, continue to invite the Holy Spirit [He is the operative element here, not doctrine] everything flows from that. Works come from being Born Again, works do not determine salvation, denomination doesn't determine salvation.

ALL OF US, wasting our time here, trying to impress each other with how smart we are, quoting people from a thousand years ago, trying to wade through legalese, is PROOF that the HS is alive and working in ALL of our hearts.

Otherwise, we ALL HAVE VASTLY better things to do.

And Mary had kids. grin....

So why are you here? :D

[hyperdulia again]

"but that Jesus came, died, and did so to to satisfy God's demands from the Old Testament regarding sin. "

Mormons believe this. JWs believe this. Are they "saved"?

[jasJis]

It's not about each of us ALONE. We are our brother's keeper. If you really want the BIG PICTURE, why do you expect God to show it entirely to you? When has God ever done that?

And "You do NOT need man, works, or actions to GET salvation. You don't have to believe anyone, or anything, but that Jesus came, died, and did so to to satisfy God's demands from the Old Testament regarding sin."

I have to laugh at this. Do you read the Bible? How does you statement 'You do Not need ... works,' jibe with 'Faith without works is dead'. And the clear admonishment that even satan believes in God.