The "ex-cathedra" Quandry

[Circle_Master]

Please show me a list of your ex-Cathedra sayings. It sounds from implication that they are all easily recorded and recognized. I know a few, but I would assume there to be a list since they are kindof so important being inspired by God and all.

[cmotherofpirl]

Catrechism link is in the reading room. Look it up.

[hyperdulia again]

I can only see clear ex-cathedra status in Unam Sanctum, the Immaculate Conception, and The Assumption.

[Circle_Master]

Thanks for your honest answer hyper. Could I ask why you have those three?

[Bruce S]

Catrechism link is in the reading room. Look it up.

The Catechism is NOT an official summary of the Ex-Cathedra doctrines, it is a short handbook of policy and teachings, and it too, has been revised in my lifetime.

Produce the official listing of Ex-Cathedra doctrines, or concede, grin.

Scripture cannot be appealed to as the highest law because the Catholic Church tells us what scripture is what it really means. Tradition cannot be appealed to either as the highest law because the church doesn't agree officially on what tradition is. The fathers cannot be appealed to because there is no agreement on what fathers are authorative. God himself cannot be used as the Catholic Church does not agree on what God said, and claims to be the voice of God on earth. And since there is no definitive agreement, inside the Catholic Church itself there is NO ethical of doctrinal STANDARD tow which ANYONE can point to, the Catholic church ITSELF becomes autonomous, a complete LAW unto itself. With no one alive capable of understanding.

Shifting tides, hiding behind a veil of impentrable mists, stutterstepping, and convoluted verbiage.

Impossible to understand, and even more impossible to accept.

Edited December 29, 2003 by Bruce S

[RJS]

Thanks for your honest answer hyper.  Could I ask why you have those three?

Because as far as I understand (correct me if I am wrong) other teachings are a basic part of Christian theology. For instance the Pope does not need to make an ex cathedra statement on abortion because it is just known that abortion is wrong and has always been taught as such.

Edited December 29, 2003 by RJS

[Circle_Master]

Scriture cannot be appealed to as the highest law because the Catholic Church tells us what scripture is what it really means. Tradition cannot be appealed to either as the highest law because the church doesn't agree officially on what tradition is. The fathers cannot be appealed to because there is no agreement on what fathers are authorative. God himself cannot be used as the Catholic Church does not agree on what God said, and claims to be the voice of God on earth. And since there is no definitive agreement, inside the Catholic Church itself there is NO ethical of doctrinal STANDARD tow which ANYONE can point to, the Catholic church ITSELF becomes autonomous, a complete LAW unto itself. With no one alive capable of understanding.

that is what I've been thinking as well.

[Bruce S]

Because as far as I understand (correct me if I am wrong) other teachings are a basic part of Christian theology. For instance the Pope does not need to make an ex cathedra statement on abortion because it is just known that abortion is wrong.

Murder is wrong. Abortion is murder. The 10 commandments cover this one.

We are talking about doctrine here.

We have three Ex-Cathedra doctrines now, is that it?

Are the rest of the teahings of the Catholic Church fallible? Is tradition just tradition, and NOT truth? I would certainly expect a complete list of the things that would send me to hell for not knowing about to be in printed form if I were to be an observant Catholic.

After all, rules are rules, and those unknown rules can get you in a lot of hot water.

Oh, two of the ones stated as Ex-Cathedra statements, are not backed up by scripture, just traditions, but WHO started these as official in the first place. The bodily assumption of Mary rests on perhaps the shakiest underpinnings of history of all of the Catholic dogma's. That one is just plucked out of the same thin air that She assumed into.

Edited December 29, 2003 by Bruce S

[Circle_Master]

well, if I believe the immaculate conception, and the sinlessness of mary I would believe the assumption as well. The idea of it not being recorded would have been as no more Scripture was being produced (the Apostles were gone, and their gift of Apostleship).

Let's not get too offensive Bruce, if we want to win a debate we gotta conjole them into admitting it, not just blast (oops I said that out loud!)

[beng]

Bruce S

The Catechism is NOT an official summary of the Ex-Cathedra doctrines, it is a short handbook of policy and teachings, and it too, has been revised in my lifetime.

You have more authority than we who actually make the CCC?

Produce the official listing of Ex-Cathedra doctrines, or concede, grin.

http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dog...tholic%20Church.

Scripture cannot be appealed to as the highest law because the Catholic Church tells us what scripture is what it really means.

The magisterium could only interpret what the scripture says.

Tradition cannot be appealed to either as the highest law because the church doesn't agree officially on what tradition is.

Says who? You?

The fathers cannot be appealed to because there is no agreement on what fathers are authorative.

Fathers have, at times, a unanimous consent.

Most of the time they don't.

Thus, the church authority would judge.

God himself cannot be used as the Catholic Church does not agree on what God said, and claims to be the voice of God on earth.

Says who? you?

Do I hear this from someone who go against God? (the making statue issue)

And since there is no definitive agreement, inside the Catholic Church itself there is NO ethical of doctrinal STANDARD tow which ANYONE can point to, the Catholic church ITSELF becomes autonomous, a complete LAW unto itself. With no one alive capable of understanding.

Which dogma/doctrine that we don't agree on.

Talking out of your behind doesn't make it true.

Shifting tides, hiding behind a veil of impentrable mists, stutterstepping, and convoluted verbiage.

This is what Sola Scripturist did since the 15 century.

Impossible to understand, and even more impossible to accept.

Says who? You?

[beng]

Bruce S

Murder is wrong. Abortion is murder. The 10 commandments cover this one.

We are talking about doctrine here.

Say that to the Protestant, who since 1930, allowed abortion.

[Bruce S]

Say that to the Protestant, who since 1930, allowed abortion.

Some. Some.

Most don't. Murder is WRONG. Catholics are RIGHT on this one.

Be gracious, accpet the compliment.

Duh, even when you win a point, you can't accept that.

Should I type in Latin to make the point clearer? :rolleyes:

[jasJis]

If you honestly want to reasearch 'Ex Cathedra' and Infallibility, start here: Infallibility

Otherwise, you are creating a strawman for a false arguement. The Grace of the Holy Spirit that Christ endowed in his Church abides in all parts of it. Just as Scripture tells us that as individuals, we are graced differently, only communally are we complete in the Body of Christ.

That certain Authorities in the physical Institution of the Catholic Church exists, does not mean that Grace and Authority exist elsewhere. There is a hierarchal nature of Authority within the Church, but Catholics recognize that it is complete only as a whole.

The Protestant aruguement that Scripture is the highest Authority is a false arguement because Scripture is not understood the same by all people. Even the Eunuch saw this. Jesus's fullfillment of the Law established by God made the 'spirit' of the law effectively avaible to us. We don't have to live the the Word alone, we have been Graced to live the Fullfillment as well.

To say that the written Scripture exceeds all other Authority, is to deny the living existence of the Holy Spirit, in each and every member of Christ's Church. That is the error the Pharisees were repeatedly warned against.

The Catholic defenition of 'ex cathedra' and 'infallibility' includes the requirement that the ordained person is working in conjuction with all the Graces that God has gifted us through His Son. That includes Scripture, as well as the spoken word of Jesus who's understanding is kept alive through Apostolic Tradtion, as well as the current and historical working of the Holy Spirit in the Faithful.

[beng]

Posted by Pax on catholicconvert.com forum

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

MEDIATOR DEI

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII

ON THE SACRED LITURGY

TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN, THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,

ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES

IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE

Venerable Brethren,

Health and Apostolic Benediction.

Mediator between God and men[1] and High Priest who has gone before us into heaven, Jesus the Son of God[2] quite clearly had one aim in view when He undertook the mission of mercy which was to endow mankind with the rich blessings of supernatural grace. Sin had disturbed the right relationship between man and his Creator; the Son of God would restore it. The children of Adam were wretched heirs to the infection of original sin; He would bring them back to their heavenly Father, the primal source and final destiny of all things. For this reason He was not content, while He dwelt with us on earth, merely to give notice that redemption had begun, and to proclaim the long-awaited Kingdom of God, but gave Himself besides in prayer and sacrifice to the task of saving souls, even to the point of offering Himself, as He hung from the cross, a Victim unspotted unto God, to purify our conscience of dead works, to serve the living God.[3] Thus happily were all men summoned back from the byways leading them down to ruin and disaster, to be set squarely once again upon the path that leads to God. Thanks to the shedding of the blood of the Immaculate Lamb, now each might set about the personal task of achieving his own sanctification, so rendering to God the glory due to Him.

2. But what is more, the divine Redeemer has so willed it that the priestly life begun with the supplication and sacrifice of His mortal body should continue without intermission down the ages in His Mystical Body which is the Church. That is why He established a visible priesthood to offer everywhere the clean oblation[4] which would enable men from East to West, freed from the shackles of sin, to offer God that unconstrained and voluntary homage which their conscience dictates.

3. In obedience, therefore, to her Founder's behest, the Church prolongs the priestly mission of Jesus Christ mainly by means of the sacred liturgy. She does this in the first place at the altar, where constantly the sacrifice of the cross is represented[5] and with a single difference in the manner of its offering, renewed.[6] She does it next by means of the sacraments, those special channels through which men are made partakers in the supernatural life. She does it, finally, by offering to God, all Good and Great, the daily tribute of her prayer of praise. "What a spectacle for heaven and earth," observes Our predecessor of happy memory, Pius XI, "is not the Church at prayer! For centuries without interruption, from midnight to midnight, the divine psalmody of the inspired canticles is repeated on earth; there is no hour of the day that is not hallowed by its special liturgy; there is no state of human life that has not its part in the thanksgiving, praise, supplication and reparation of this common prayer of the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Church!"[7]

1. 1 Timothy 2:5.

2. Cf. Hebrews 4:14.

3. Cf. Hebrews 9:14.

4. Cf. Malachi 1:11.

5. Cf. Council of Trent Sess. 22, c. 1. http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT22.HTM

6. Cf. ibid., c. 2.

7. Encyclical Letter Caritate Christi, May 3, 1932.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/...ompulsi_en.html

That is just the first 3 paragraphs of one Encyclical Letter. (Note carefully footnote 4.) If you want more, read the reat of the Encyclical. If you want more than that, read more Encyclical Letters. Also, read the Councillior documents, and their dogmatic pronouncements.

You are unaware that it exists simple because you do not take the time or make the effort to discover it. Not that it is a treasure hidden deep in our vaults! Rather, it is a gift as free as the gift of Salvation for anyone who desires to possess it.

Sola Scriptura? Ha! You guys can't even figure out who James the son of Alphaeus is! (cf. Galatians 1:19.)

Edited December 29, 2003 by beng

[Bruce S]

Followed your link. Gimmie a break here, THIS is your explaination that I'm supposed to be able to FIND the answer to "What is the Offical Ex-Cathedra" list?

The dogmas of the faith 

(Excerpts from the Catechism)

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to

the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes truths

contained in divine Revelation or having a necessary connection with them,

in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of

faith.

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the

dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and

make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart

will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.

90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found

in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ. "In Catholic

doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy 234 of truths, since they vary

in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."

I think you just proved our point. This is doubletalk, it can mean anything anyone wants it to, and can be changed at the drop of a hat. "In the whole of Revelation of the mystery of Christ..."

Keep on providing links. First we have the Vatican and it's impenetrable mumbo jumple, quoted for everyone to TRY and understand, then that is "interpreted" in the CCC, which is even MORE obtuse.

And this is the message of Christ? I like the RED LETTERS section of the New Testament better, the Pharisees complained that the PARABLES were too hard to understand...

THEY were clairity itself, compared to these murky squiggles.