NSA amassing vast database of domestic calls

[jezic]

one of the few things that does trouble me is because of the nature of the information it would be kept secret of course, so even if their motives for doing this are good now, in the future it could be used to supress people with opposing viewpoints or political opponents.

[Desert Walker]

Media chicken little stuff...

May I ask why it is no longer possible to think that the U.S. government, from the top down, could orchestrate the downfall of human liberty?

The true patriot is one who keeps his eyes open in an energetic search for threats to liberty. When are more people going to wake up to the fact that it would be insane for a government to threaten long established liberty ALL AT ONCE? Tyrants introduce a trend, they set a precedent; only then is it possible to begin the erosion process. And only after the trend is established as a NORMALITY can you convince individuals, first, that collectively they are a mob, and second, that, as a mob, they NEED to be RULED COMPLETELY.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Desert Walker' post='978629' date='May 11 2006, 03:42 PM']
Media chicken little stuff...

May I ask why it is no longer possible to think that the U.S. government, from the top down, could orchestrate the downfall of human liberty?

The true patriot is one who keeps his eyes open in an energetic search for threats to liberty. When are more people going to wake up to the fact that it would be insane for a government to threaten long established liberty ALL AT ONCE? Tyrants introduce a trend, they set a precedent; only then is it possible to begin the erosion process. And only after the trend is established as a NORMALITY can you convince individuals, first, that collectively they are a mob, and second, that, as a mob, they NEED to be RULED COMPLETELY.
[/quote]

What I mean by chicken little stuff is that the media is struggling to discredit the adminstration. I'm not meaning this negative tone toward you, but to the lies of the media. They fill me with a rightous desire for justice for they promote the killing of the innocent... referring to pro-life as 'anti-choice/anti-abortion' is trying to give a negative tone to those who try to protect the innocent. They are almost as guilty as the doctor who kills the unborn baby. They'll get what's coming to them. It makes me mad how they deceive my brethern.

People see something from the media and it seems like the sky is falling for them by the way they say certain things. This example is actually old news. Before getting up in arms over it, people need to think about what good reasons there are to do it and do some research into the history of it.

There have been countless times over the past five to six years that the media has blow something out of proportion and attacked Bush on that Clinton put into action.

All the mainstream media cares about is the decline of morals and killing babies. Nothing they say can be taken at face value... they want you to live in a state of fear so you'll be glued to hearing what they have to say so that you can feed your fear.

Doom and gloom makes ratings skyrocket.

The media and democats at the national level don't answer to God because they don't believe... therefore they have no moral compass, lying is totally ok to them. Most reps believe in God and know that they'll have to answer to Him... some lie, but they know they'll have to pay for their lies... point being is that people should start seeing what the administration has to say and learning to look down at the acorn that the media hit them in the head with, instead of thinking the sky is falling.

The media just makes me mad how they lie and distort the truth so much. They are evil. It speaks volumes to which side is right when one side has to distort truths and lie about the other.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Iacobus]

I think the whole NSA thing is wrong. We should be able to live our lives without fearing that we are being listened to/tracked/spied on. When we live our lives like that, we are giving up a large part of our freedom and the "terrorists win."

However, while I think this is wrong and should be stopped regardless of who is doing it, I think the whole "the goverment is spying on me" thing is a load of BS. Even if our goverment wanted to spy on us, they are so useless at so many things that they likely wouldn't be able to do it. The ACLU's idea of it is a lot of BS, the goverment isn't big enough to listen to every American's phone calls and read all their emails. That said, I do think it is a problem and should be stopped. Stopping terrorists is easy enough without wireless roaming warrently evesdropping. Put a trap on the terrorist's suspected phone of use and record the numbers calling it and those it calls. Look at those people, see if they are terrorists or just wrong numbers. The phone number is a bit of information that can be gathered from select sources (already known to be terrorists) and that can lead to other suspected terrorists. And so on. None of this requires listening to converstions randomly or recording who calls who without first knowing that at least one "who" is a terrorist.

[jasJis]

Let's not get our silky briefs in a bunch. Think of what personal information is used and bartered about on the internet when you supply an e-mail addy for a survey. Think of what 'tracking' is done with spyware and that's not illegal.

Tracking phone numbers is not a big deal. Is it being related back to individiuals? Could it be that certain numbers that are associated with suspected terrorists organizations are monitored for a spike in making calls tothe use? Are certain numbers being monitored for actitvity and whether or not there's an increase in calls to out of the Country?

What's wrong about that? The uproar is silly and is being used solely for political purposes. Come up with how certain groups and people can be monitored? What can be done to prevent terrorist activity? Are we supposed to do nothing until an attack happens and then chase down the criminals? Get a bit reasonable and look at the bigger picture.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Iacobus' post='979003' date='May 11 2006, 11:16 PM']
I think the whole NSA thing is wrong. We should be able to live our lives without fearing that we are being listened to/tracked/spied on. When we live our lives like that, we are giving up a large part of our freedom and the "terrorists win."

However, while I think this is wrong and should be stopped regardless of who is doing it, I think the whole "the goverment is spying on me" thing is a load of BS. Even if our goverment wanted to spy on us, they are so useless at so many things that they likely wouldn't be able to do it. The ACLU's idea of it is a lot of BS, the goverment isn't big enough to listen to every American's phone calls and read all their emails. That said, I do think it is a problem and should be stopped. Stopping terrorists is easy enough without wireless roaming warrently evesdropping. Put a trap on the terrorist's suspected phone of use and record the numbers calling it and those it calls. Look at those people, see if they are terrorists or just wrong numbers. The phone number is a bit of information that can be gathered from select sources (already known to be terrorists) and that can lead to other suspected terrorists. And so on. None of this requires listening to converstions randomly or recording who calls who without first knowing that at least one "who" is a terrorist.
[/quote]

Obviously you didn't read the above and haven't studied the issue. This is old news, this started back when Clinton was president.

The NSA thing is right. No one is getting spied on who doesn't deserve to get looked into. They need to keep the data for when Terrorist Akmar blows himself up at the local Starbucks they can check his phone records and find out who else might be blowing themselves up so they can stop it.

The reality is that there is just too much data for them to sift through even if they wanted to spy on Americans. The NSA is not spying, they use it to find terrorists and megacriminals who need to be put under survellince.

[jasJis]

Some people need to watch 24 and pay attention to what the CTU does. Chloe wouldn't spy on anyone.

[PadreSantiago]

america is funny

"We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans."
George W. Bush

"last week we cemented a deal with another corporate giant to jointly develop a system to mine data that helps us learn about our targets."
General Hayden

[God Conquers]

No one is "listening" to calls.

All they are doing is monitoring numbers... who calls who and when... specifically suspicious terrorist and criminally linked numbers.

Granted I live in Canada... but if our government wanted to log all my phone calls to try an prevent my dad's office building from being blown up.. I'd say HELL YES!

I mean... who is objecting to this anyway? Are you calling people you shouldn't be? What is the government going to do with the information that you call your mom 5 times a day?

The only people really worried are adulterous and "in the closet" public officials who don't want to get found out... and even if the government WOULD use that kind of info, they'd get their @sses sued off.



... oh ya, the other people woried: terrorists and their supporters.

[PadreSantiago]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='980829' date='May 14 2006, 01:45 AM']
No one is "listening" to calls.

All they are doing is monitoring numbers... who calls who and when... specifically suspicious terrorist and criminally linked numbers.

Granted I live in Canada... but if our government wanted to log all my phone calls to try an prevent my dad's office building from being blown up.. I'd say HELL YES!

I mean... who is objecting to this anyway? Are you calling people you shouldn't be? What is the government going to do with the information that you call your mom 5 times a day?

The only people really worried are adulterous and "in the closet" public officials who don't want to get found out... and even if the government WOULD use that kind of info, they'd get their @sses sued off.
... oh ya, the other people woried: terrorists and their supporters.
[/quote]


Umm hello you are so naive. What the hell is the point of just monitoring who people call, if you start calling iraq once a week they are going to bug your phone, otherwise what's the friggin point at all?

[God Conquers]

So what they monitor suspicious numbers?

Two possible results:

"Hey mom, Happy Mother's Day, how's that bunyan on your left big toe?"

"Hey Fred... $10 000? To blow up American soldiers helping repair an unprotected orphanage? HELL YES!"


So if someone is #1, what do they care?

If it is #2, thank God they monitored.

[PadreSantiago]

the point is the are monitoring calls they just won't admit it, just like they are torturing people and won't admit. WHY WOULD THEY JUST KEEP TABS ON WHO YOU CALL!?!?!?! It's like writing a check you never cash.

[ironmonk]

It just goes to show how little you know about the topic or technology.

They don't have the time to sift through all the data, even with the most powerful computers in the world. The data is growing at a rate beyond your imagination. The volume of telephone calls in America is massive. There is no God given right to privacy. Unless someone is doing something bad, then they need not worry. If the government stops one terrorist from killing innocent lives, then the system was totally worth it.

Privacy is far down on the list of rights. Life and truth outweigh privacy. To believe that privacy is more important than the truth is a sign that one is a media zombie, watches to much TV, doesn't think to deeply, and has malformed priorities.
1) God (which is truth)
2) Human Life
3) Family Life
4) Social Justice
5) Global Solidarity
...
way down the list) privacy.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[God Conquers]

In fact, I don't even think you can FIND "right to privacy" in the Bill of Rights.

It was invented by the Supreme court to allow contraception, abortion, sodomy.. and soon gay marriage... and terrorism apparently too.

[philothea]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='979118' date='May 12 2006, 06:28 AM']
The NSA thing is right. No one is getting spied on who doesn't deserve to get looked into. They need to keep the data for when Terrorist Akmar blows himself up at the local Starbucks they can check his phone records and find out who else might be blowing themselves up so they can stop it.

The reality is that there is just too much data for them to sift through even if they wanted to spy on Americans. The NSA is not spying, they use it to find terrorists and megacriminals who need to be put under survellince.
[/quote]
[quote name='God Conquers' post='980829' date='May 14 2006, 01:45 AM']
No one is "listening" to calls.

All they are doing is monitoring numbers... who calls who and when... specifically suspicious terrorist and criminally linked numbers.

Granted I live in Canada... but if our government wanted to log all my phone calls to try an prevent my dad's office building from being blown up.. I'd say HELL YES!

I mean... who is objecting to this anyway? Are you calling people you shouldn't be? What is the government going to do with the information that you call your mom 5 times a day?

The only people really worried are adulterous and "in the closet" public officials who don't want to get found out... and even if the government WOULD use that kind of info, they'd get their @sses sued off.
... oh ya, the other people woried: terrorists and their supporters.
[/quote]
Just FYI, both of you are [url="http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70944-0.html"]totally wrong.[/url] (Quick, click the link before the government shuts them down! )

The intent was to gather every piece of information that passes through AT&T's backbone, and secret [b]illegal[/b] monitoring equipment was installed to do this. Whoever told you that the controversy was over calling lists was [i]lying to you.[/i]

I am aghast that you guys are so totally ignorant that you don't understand why anyone cares. I suppose you've never been involved in politics? Don't ever read any history? Don't ever give the government any power that you don't want [b]your enemies[/b] to have. Don't assume that "good guys" will always run the government (not that they are now -- but that's a different issue).

Intelligence agencies have now, and had before, more than sufficient information gathering capability to defend the nation. More information will not help against terrorists. Less time spent spying on ordinary American citizens who are no threat would undoubtedly help.

The only use in gathering everyones email is to spy for other reasons -- on political rivals, for various corporate interests, etc..

Some quotes from the article:
[quote]In 2003 AT&T built "secret rooms" hidden deep in the bowels of its central offices in various cities, housing computer gear for a government spy operation which taps into the company's popular WorldNet service and the entire internet. These installations enable the government to look at every individual message on the internet and analyze exactly what people are doing. Documents showing the hardwire installation in San Francisco suggest that there are similar locations being installed in numerous other cities.[/quote]
[quote]The normal work force of unionized technicians in the office are forbidden to enter the "secret room," which has a special combination lock on the main door. The telltale sign of an illicit government spy operation is the fact that [i]only people with security clearance from the National Security Agency can enter this room.[/i][/quote]
[quote]Another Cut-In and Test Procedure document dated January 24, 2003, provides diagrams of how AT&T Core Network circuits were to be run through the "splitter" cabinet. One page lists the circuit IDs of key Peering Links which were "cut-in" in February 2003, including ConXion, Verio, XO, Genuity, Qwest, PAIX, Allegiance, AboveNet, Global Crossing, C&W, UUNET, Level 3, Sprint, Telia, PSINet and Mae West. By the way, Mae West is one of two key internet nodal points in the United States (the other, Mae East, is in Vienna, Virginia). It's not just WorldNet customers who are being spied on -- it's the entire internet.[/quote]